Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#41

Post by ggm » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

The cold war experience of tit-for-tat has two lessons:

Firstly, somebody has to make a move either at parity which is respected or below, and the "you blinked first" message has to be ignored.

Secondly, there are always collateral damages. You can't afford to expel Russian diplomatic staff so you expel east Germans. You don't want to risk core staff so you send friendly nations into harm's way.

Canada was thrown into harm's way to avoid a bigger problem. The question is: who is willing to de scale the tit-for-tat response first?

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#42

Post by trainingaccount » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

polartx wrote: post #12

DennisP wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is also what the U.S. did for its first century or so. A lot of us think U.S. IP law has seriously overextended itself these days. I'm not sure I entirely blame China for not going along with it.

Ah yes, because Samuel Slater smuggled cotton spinner trade secrets out of England in 1789, China is justified committing IP theft today. Sound logic

We smuggled those silkworms out of China and can make our own silk now!

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#43

Post by Tsubasachan » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

Good advice that we should all take into consideration. Were it not that New York is part of the United States. Whose idea was...oh wait

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Breda_(1667)

Mea culpa.

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#44

Post by Tsubasachan » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

bsamuels wrote: post #13

DennisP wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is also what the U.S. did for its first century or so. A lot of us think U.S. IP law has seriously overextended itself these days. I'm not sure I entirely blame China for not going along with it.

What kinds of IP did the US steal in its first century? Interested from a historical perspective

Well I don't know about IP but the Colonies were a haven for pirates, privateers, mercenaries and smugglers.

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#45

Post by Gonzih » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:11 PM UTC

This is a thing not just in China based organizations. A lot of hi-tech companies around the world have clause in a contract that does not allow any employees to traves to US while carrying anything containing IP of a company or discourage employees from traveling to US altogether.

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#46

Post by walexander » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:18 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #20

conistonwater wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this just whataboutery, or can you please explain how your argument is supposed to work?

That particular argument isn't really sound, because the question is one of magnitude. However it still isn't obvious why China should enforce US IP law if it doesn't want to. IP is the ultimate human creation, it has no basis in the physical world. If pretending ideas are property puts China at a disadvantage there isn't a moral or practical reason to do it.

There is no moral obligation for them to do so and yes they can choose not to enforce US IP law if they don't want to.

The US can also choose to place massive tariffs on any goods coming out of China, making them highly uncompetitive. Their choice, it looks like.

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#47

Post by DennisP » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:19 PM UTC

pytyper2 wrote: post #34

coldtea wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic is "if you've used it to become the richest nation on earth don't knock out others using it to become rich". And those that still benefit from the heads-tart due to their country/ancestors having done so, shouldn't play it holier than thou either. Not to mention the whole hypocrisy, since the US has used corporate espionage and actual spying on supposed "allies" corporations since forever and still does, pl…

If he was smuggling, it was a crime then, it's a crime now.

If you're referring to Slater, it was not a crime in the U.S., and explicitly legal for quite some time afterwards. See the links I posted in another comment here.

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#48

Post by DennisP » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:23 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #20

conistonwater wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this just whataboutery, or can you please explain how your argument is supposed to work?

That particular argument isn't really sound, because the question is one of magnitude. However it still isn't obvious why China should enforce US IP law if it doesn't want to. IP is the ultimate human creation, it has no basis in the physical world. If pretending ideas are property puts China at a disadvantage there isn't a moral or practical reason to do it.

IP is a much bigger part of the economy now, but for the time, U.S. infringement of foreign IP was rampant, and explicitly legal. See the links I posted in another comment here.

I wasn't intending to use that comparison as a real justification of China's infringement; your point is a much better one as far as that goes. I brought up U.S. history in response to the characterization of China's culture as particularly disrespectful of "the rules and customs of other cultures."

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#49

Post by DennisP » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:28 PM UTC

walexander wrote: post #46

roenxi wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That particular argument isn't really sound, because the question is one of magnitude. However it still isn't obvious why China should enforce US IP law if it doesn't want to. IP is the ultimate human creation, it has no basis in the physical world. If pretending ideas are property puts China at a disadvantage there isn't a moral or practical reason to do it.

There is no moral obligation for them to do so and yes they can choose not to enforce US IP law if they don't want to. The US can also choose to place massive tariffs on any goods coming out of China, making them highly uncompetitive. Their choice, it looks like.

In which case China does the same thing back to us, as we've been seeing lately. Most economists think this sort of thing does more harm than good.

Re: Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

#50

Post by eganist » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

Surprising amount of support for IP theft here today.

The US got away with it because countries like the UK couldn't police it during the industrial revolution. Whoops.

The Chinese got away with it because the US couldn't police it on the global stage. Whoops.

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But the US might've found a way to police it effectively now... soooo why would we not? Why would we permit it because others historically got away with it? Without civility, you only own what you can defend.