Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person • Hacker News Board

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#51

Post by coldtea » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:20 PM UTC

aurailious wrote: post #19

jdoliner wrote: post #2

Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down, rather than up, over the course of any length of time? Even a day? I don't, which raises the question: how does a world where debt monotonically increases indefinitely work? Can that happen forever, in which case debt has just become a standin for currency (that allows people…

> Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? I don't understand why you would ask this question. On the individual level its obvious that some debts won't be. It happens all the time for a lot of reasons. So I assume you aren't talking about the individual level. But on the macro level zero debt is a very bad idea and unless civilization collapses there will always be debt. Debt…

>Debt allows people to own homes and cars and pay for education and invest in business. Debt means you are optimistic about the future.

How about having homes and cars and education without debt?

It's not like you need to be in debt to another and to steal from your feature to have nice things...

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#52

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:20 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #46

ctdonath wrote: post #21

There's a reason ancient Judaism included a "Year of Jubilee", where all debts were forgiven every 50 years.

If all debt was forgiven every 50 years, why would any lender lend money with a term going past the year before the jubilee?

They wouldn't and maybe it's a bad idea to enter debt that last more than 50 years. It pretty much means to borrow money that the next generation has to pay off.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#53

Post by audunw » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

wufufufu wrote: post #5

I'm ignorant on this, but to me there are two kinds of debt. 1) Personal debt, like I took out a car loan and I can get the car repossessed or the loan sold to debt collectors. 2) Debt that exists just to create more money i.e. the IMF or Fed Reserve decide to have an expansionary monetary policy and they lend from... what exactly? The purpose is to just control inflation. I'm guessing this is the second kind of debt…

> 1) Personal debt, like I took out a car loan and I can get the car repossessed or the loan sold to debt collectors. 2) Debt that exists just to create more money i.e. the IMF or Fed Reserve decide to have an expansionary monetary policy and they lend from... what exactly?

As far as I know, these two are the same.

In a fractional reserve banking system, when you borrow money from the bank for a car or a house, that money is then created from nothing. They just punch in the number in your account, and there you have it.

At the end of the day, the bank has to have a certain reserve, which is held in the banks account in the central bank. The central bank doesn't usually create the money itself, it lets the banks to it for them, as long as they stick within the limits.

I could be very wrong here. Not an expert. This is my laymans understanding.

This is why it's not really worrying on its own that there's a large amount of debt per person. Debt is how money is created in our system. As other countries get wealthier, you expect them to have more debt. Put another way: if you're living outside civilisation, you're not gonna get a loan for anything. But as soon as you live in a modern city with some steady income, you can borrow several times the amount you make a year, and that's generally OK as long as you expect to make that money back some time during your lifetime.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#54

Post by coldtea » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

bb2018 wrote: post #9

jdoliner wrote: post #2

Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down, rather than up, over the course of any length of time? Even a day? I don't, which raises the question: how does a world where debt monotonically increases indefinitely work? Can that happen forever, in which case debt has just become a standin for currency (that allows people…

I think many think articles like this intentionally make the numbers seem as scary as possible. Negative currency (debt) is a good thing for most people. It is what enables people to buy cars and houses or go to college. Of course, many individuals will get in over their head but on the whole it is a positive thing that individuals can take out mortgage and owe more on the house than they put down. The same goes for…

>I think many think articles like this intentionally make the numbers seem as scary as possible. Negative currency (debt) is a good thing for most people. It is what enables people to buy cars and houses or go to college.

Either that, or cheap college tuition.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#55

Post by njarboe » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

jdoliner wrote: post #2

Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down, rather than up, over the course of any length of time? Even a day? I don't, which raises the question: how does a world where debt monotonically increases indefinitely work? Can that happen forever, in which case debt has just become a standin for currency (that allows people…

For every debt there is someone holding it as a credit. Unless the lizard men space alien conspiracy is correct and they will come down with their space weapons to enslave us if we don't pay, this is just digits in a computer and can disappear in a wink of and eye (or revolution).

As for the currency idea, that is already how dollars are created. A bank loans out money it owes other people and creates new money.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#56

Post by isoprophlex » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

joobus wrote: post #43

aurailious wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? I don't understand why you would ask this question. On the individual level its obvious that some debts won't be. It happens all the time for a lot of reasons. So I assume you aren't talking about the individual level. But on the macro level zero debt is a very bad idea and unless civilization collapses there will always be debt. Debt…

This reads like a person with Stockholm syndrome, captured by the Federal Reserve system. Money/currency does not have to be debt based. For a lot of America's history, it was not debt based.

People downvoting this comment: please provide reasons for disagreeing. You are not adding to the discussion by silently downvoting.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#57

Post by jameslk » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

jdoliner wrote: post #2

Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down, rather than up, over the course of any length of time? Even a day? I don't, which raises the question: how does a world where debt monotonically increases indefinitely work? Can that happen forever, in which case debt has just become a standin for currency (that allows people…

I asked a similar question on the Economics Stack Exchange. You may find this helpful:

https://economics.stackexchange.com/questions/10007/will-maj...

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#58

Post by coldtea » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

TACIXAT wrote: post #13

malux85 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too! I think some things like “unsustainable food production” will probably slowly resolve itself with increases in automation and efficiency, but I do think runaway global warming will need a drastic solution. What other ones do you think will be hardest to solve?

>runaway global warming will need a drastic solution I look forward to our subterranean future. I think the combination of vehicle automation and tunneling technology will allow us to build massive underground systems. If things get too rough on land, we can go below the surface.

Yeah, destroying the climate and living underground like moles sure sounds like something to "look forward to" /s

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#59

Post by CoolGuySteve » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #46

ctdonath wrote: post #21

There's a reason ancient Judaism included a "Year of Jubilee", where all debts were forgiven every 50 years.

If all debt was forgiven every 50 years, why would any lender lend money with a term going past the year before the jubilee?

If debtor's prison can't work past the jubilee year, wouldn't violence in-lieu of collections spike right before the jubilee too?

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#60

Post by coldtea » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:25 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #49

politician wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I secretly believe that for all of the bluster about Mars, Elon's real goal is to produce the technology base necessary for humans to live here on Earth following the collapse of the biosphere. Why go to Mars to encounter an atmosphere hostile to life when we can all collectively experience right here at home? Storms washed out your fiber optic cables? Starlink. No place to hide from the hostile surface? Boring Co. N…

It is a nice theory, but there is a problem. The problem is that in the event of collapse, only SOME can reasonably be supported this way. And how to keep the unlucky masses from tearing down the means of survival for the lucky few? The most effective answer is distance. While unlucky mobs can walk to your solar panels in the desert after civilization breaks down, how are they going to get to Mars? Get a good trampol…

>The most effective answer is distance. While unlucky mobs can walk to your solar panels in the desert after civilization breaks down, how are they going to get to Mars? Get a good trampoline to jump on?

On some Mars colony with the foreseeable level of technology for the next 100-200 years you're even more prone to death and to worse climate than whatever might happen here on earth.

Beyond 200 years, Elon Musk could not care less about...