Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 287 posts

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#11

Post by izzydata »

malux85 wrote: post #6
izzydata wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm excited to see how all kinds of things unfold in the next 50 years. Supposedly max human population, running out of oil, icecaps melting, unsustainable amount of food production, dying ecosystems. The economy seems like the least troubling really as it is all superficial anyway.

Me too! I think some things like “unsustainable food production” will probably slowly resolve itself with increases in automation and efficiency, but I do think runaway global warming will need a drastic solution. What other ones do you think will be hardest to solve?

Too many humans is ethically unsolvable. There is that solution from the book Inferno where they (spoiler alert) release a chemical warhead of somekind that causes the majority of the world to become infertile. But try voluntarily convincing people they aren't allowed to have children. At least it is better than a war that kills off part of the population.

We also use other limited resources in unsustainable ways even if it won't deplete in the next 50 years it is obviously inevitable. I hear about usable sand for construction being depleted at a rate faster than it is replenished.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#12

Post by AnimalMuppet »

intralizee wrote: post #7

Similar to how the US bailed out the banks. How about the citizens are bailed out. It would boost the economy. Restore faith in the system!

That might be nice, but... how, exactly?

By writing off the debts? That's not so nice for those who are owed. A bunch of those are pension funds, for example. If peoples' pensions get wiped out by by all debts being forgiven, they won't be so happy.

By the government giving money to people? But where does the government get the money? By taking on debt? Then the government's even more deeply in debt, which means that we the people still are in debt, too.

Or does the government just create more money? This might be the least-bad way of doing it, but it would still be hugely inflationary.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#13

Post by TACIXAT »

malux85 wrote: post #6
izzydata wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm excited to see how all kinds of things unfold in the next 50 years. Supposedly max human population, running out of oil, icecaps melting, unsustainable amount of food production, dying ecosystems. The economy seems like the least troubling really as it is all superficial anyway.

Me too! I think some things like “unsustainable food production” will probably slowly resolve itself with increases in automation and efficiency, but I do think runaway global warming will need a drastic solution. What other ones do you think will be hardest to solve?

>runaway global warming will need a drastic solution

I look forward to our subterranean future. I think the combination of vehicle automation and tunneling technology will allow us to build massive underground systems. If things get too rough on land, we can go below the surface.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#14

Post by throwaway98434 »

bb2018 wrote: post #9
jdoliner wrote: post #2

Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down, rather than up, over the course of any length of time? Even a day? I don't, which raises the question: how does a world where debt monotonically increases indefinitely work? Can that happen forever, in which case debt has just become a standin for currency (that allows people…

I think many think articles like this intentionally make the numbers seem as scary as possible. Negative currency (debt) is a good thing for most people. It is what enables people to buy cars and houses or go to college. Of course, many individuals will get in over their head but on the whole it is a positive thing that individuals can take out mortgage and owe more on the house than they put down. The same goes for…

Exactly. Most people have significantly more than $86k debt in the form of a mortgage. I owe a lot more than $86k on the mortgage for my home.

I have more assets than debt and I could pay off my mortgage but it's simply not the best way for me to spend my capital.

Additionally, I suspect this article is using a median value for "average income" but a mean value for "average debt." This paints a misleading picture.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#15

Post by james_s_tayler »

jdoliner wrote: post #2

Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down, rather than up, over the course of any length of time? Even a day? I don't, which raises the question: how does a world where debt monotonically increases indefinitely work? Can that happen forever, in which case debt has just become a standin for currency (that allows people…

At some point a jubilee will happen.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#16

Post by [deleted] »

miketery wrote: post #8
jdoliner wrote: post #2

Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down, rather than up, over the course of any length of time? Even a day? I don't, which raises the question: how does a world where debt monotonically increases indefinitely work? Can that happen forever, in which case debt has just become a standin for currency (that allows people…

It doesn't need to be repaid. It creates relationships, in the form of ownership or shared risk. Its why inflation is key and having control over interest rates and quantitate easing is such a powerful tool for managing all this. All this is not to say that it won't blow up in our face (in particular with perverse incentives where we continue to destroy on our environment).

[deleted]

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#17

Post by iscrewyou »

throwaway98434 wrote: post #14
bb2018 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think many think articles like this intentionally make the numbers seem as scary as possible. Negative currency (debt) is a good thing for most people. It is what enables people to buy cars and houses or go to college. Of course, many individuals will get in over their head but on the whole it is a positive thing that individuals can take out mortgage and owe more on the house than they put down. The same goes for…

Exactly. Most people have significantly more than $86k debt in the form of a mortgage. I owe a lot more than $86k on the mortgage for my home. I have more assets than debt and I could pay off my mortgage but it's simply not the best way for me to spend my capital. Additionally, I suspect this article is using a median value for "average income" but a mean value for "average debt." This paints a misleading picture.

So, speaking in terms of net value, you don’t have debt.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#19

Post by aurailious »

jdoliner wrote: post #2

Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed? Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down, rather than up, over the course of any length of time? Even a day? I don't, which raises the question: how does a world where debt monotonically increases indefinitely work? Can that happen forever, in which case debt has just become a standin for currency (that allows people…

> Does anyone actually still believe that these debts will all someday be repayed?

I don't understand why you would ask this question. On the individual level its obvious that some debts won't be. It happens all the time for a lot of reasons. So I assume you aren't talking about the individual level.

But on the macro level zero debt is a very bad idea and unless civilization collapses there will always be debt. Debt itself is a very good thing. Too much, and too little, of a good thing is bad.

So in either case all debts being paid off will almost certainly never happen.

> Does anyone even believe that the amount of debt will go down

In absolute terms due to inflation it always goes up.

> (that allows people to have negative amounts of currency)

You say this like its a bad thing. Debt isn't a bad thing. Debt allows people to own homes and cars and pay for education and invest in business. Debt means you are optimistic about the future.

Re: Debt Worldwide Hits Record $86k per Person

#20

Post by intralizee »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #12
intralizee wrote: post #7

Similar to how the US bailed out the banks. How about the citizens are bailed out. It would boost the economy. Restore faith in the system!

That might be nice, but... how, exactly? By writing off the debts? That's not so nice for those who are owed. A bunch of those are pension funds, for example. If peoples' pensions get wiped out by by all debts being forgiven, they won't be so happy. By the government giving money to people? But where does the government get the money? By taking on debt? Then the government's even more deeply in debt, which means that…

I guess creating more money as you wrote. I believe the government has boosted the economy by giving money to workers to fix things that are not necessarily at the end of life. So to boost the economy by adding more money into the system. I believe it would be a similar strategy.
Post reply on HN