China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal • Hacker News Board

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#241

Post by keldaris » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

madstap wrote: post #238

keldaris wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Within the scope of my comment I was using a far narrower definition of internal repression than you are. That being said, I don't disagree with you to any significant degree, although I would not count obesity or tropical disease. The only aspect in which the U.S. is somewhat exceptional (in the good sense) still is its legal support for free speech, which is still arguably the best in the world. I would also note t…

Sure, rich democracies are outliers, but you did say "one of the freest societies on the planet", which I parsed as somewhat stronger than "one of the rich democracies" or "not third world". I think you're wrong about the incarceration rate though, by a lot. China has an official prison pop. of about 1.5 million, to have a rate close to what the US does it'd need to have 7.5 million [1] people in the internment camps…

I think it's fairly conservative to estimate the Chinese incarceration rate at twice their official number when you factor in not just the Uyghur internment camps (which account for up to a million people by some estimates, though the true number is probably smaller than that), but also other undeclared internment facilities, political prisoners and a fair number of people who tend to just disappear in corruption purges, etc. You're probably right in saying they haven't reached the U.S. rate quite yet, but they seem to be closing the gap with alarming alacrity.

Note, however, that none of those speculations is in any way meant to excuse the incarceration rate of the U.S., which is an exceptionally outrageous state of affairs. It also goes to show that using incarceration as a tool of social engineering is by no means the sole province of totalitarian systems of governance.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#242

Post by madstap » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

keldaris wrote: post #241

madstap wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, rich democracies are outliers, but you did say "one of the freest societies on the planet", which I parsed as somewhat stronger than "one of the rich democracies" or "not third world". I think you're wrong about the incarceration rate though, by a lot. China has an official prison pop. of about 1.5 million, to have a rate close to what the US does it'd need to have 7.5 million [1] people in the internment camps…

I think it's fairly conservative to estimate the Chinese incarceration rate at twice their official number when you factor in not just the Uyghur internment camps (which account for up to a million people by some estimates, though the true number is probably smaller than that), but also other undeclared internment facilities, political prisoners and a fair number of people who tend to just disappear in corruption pur…

Even if you triple the official Chinese number that only gets you to about 54% of the US rate.

Your speculations about China sound about right to me, but as a European looking in from the outside, any time someone talks about how much freer Americans are it scares the shit out of me. The US might be the domestically freest of the global superpowers, but that doesn't mean it's any good, it just means the bar is set _really_ low.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#243

Post by keldaris » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

madstap wrote: post #242

keldaris wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fairly conservative to estimate the Chinese incarceration rate at twice their official number when you factor in not just the Uyghur internment camps (which account for up to a million people by some estimates, though the true number is probably smaller than that), but also other undeclared internment facilities, political prisoners and a fair number of people who tend to just disappear in corruption pur…

Even if you triple the official Chinese number that only gets you to about 54% of the US rate. Your speculations about China sound about right to me, but as a European looking in from the outside, any time someone talks about how much freer Americans are it scares the shit out of me. The US might be the domestically freest of the global superpowers, but that doesn't mean it's any good, it just means the bar is set _r…

As a fellow European, I think we'd do well to remember history - the previous global hegemon, the British Empire, was very similar in most regards. Arguably the domestically least repressive major society of its time - albeit also measured against a very low standard - and just as guilty of immense atrocities abroad. In terms of everyday security and freedom for the common citizen, smaller islands of civilization seem to do better on short timescales.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#244

Post by sneak » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #176

sneak wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many other nations run a global network of unacknowledged torture prisons? How many of those other nations have broken into their national legislatures to cover it up? https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/11/senator_feinstein_o... The United States pays a lot of lip service to human rights, while wholesale ignoring them when convenient. Did we forget about Manning’s torture, Assange’s fake arrest warrant, Snowde…

A lot of nations have torture prisons. USA has one of the highest incarceration rates due to the stupid war on drugs. It has enabled drug gangs - no less scary than ISIS yet ignored by our media and populace - to take over large swaths of central America. And so on. All we care about is blocking refugees from getting in. HOWEVER!!!! That is external. Internally, the USA has some of the most respect for human rights a…

...except for those insane incarceration rates, which disproportionately target specific ethnicities. And then torture them with extended solitary confinement, or sometimes murder them. Internally.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#245

Post by cabalamat » Fri, Dec 14, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #99

cabalamat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would require the USA being a lot more willing to act co-operatively with other countries than its present leadership seems capable of.

It would also include the EU showing a lot more backbone than they usually do. Just look at the Russian sanctions and how natural gas is pitches from Russia by the EU.

Absolutely true.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#246

Post by forapurpose » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 12:48 AM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #223

forapurpose wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately (for our cognitive load and moral comfort) the situation is much more complex: * It's hindsight to say China' embrace of authoritarianism, nationalism, and expansionism was inevitable. Even around ten years ago it was a much different place, with much more freedom of expression (you could find fascinating discussions of democracy by leading figures on Weibo, for example) [0] and a slow process of libera…

> Even around ten years ago it was a much different place, with much more freedom of expression (you could find fascinating discussions of democracy by leading figures on Weibo, for example) [0] and a slow process of liberalization. And ten years before that, it was using deadly military force to subdue similar democratic thoughts in Tiananmen Square.

I don't understand what you mean to imply ?

(Also, Tienanmen Square was in 1989.)

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#247

Post by crimsonalucard » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 2:20 AM UTC

EdwardDiego wrote: post #215

crimsonalucard wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those classified documents showed how the government was spying on their own citizens and breaking the law. He was whistleblowing. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/07/edward-snowden... He is literally not allowed to denounce the government for breaking their own laws.

That's what classifying documents is for - to keep them secret. He didn't get in trouble for "denouncing the government", he got in trouble for publishing classified documents. I agree with what Snowden did, and respect him for having the courage to do so, but I'm not sure if you're trying to demonise the US government or legitimise the Chinese one by claiming the prosecuting someone for publishing classified documen…

If you sign an NDA with a company then violate that NDA by whistleblowing, you are protected under US law. Snowden has no such protection.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#248

Post by sgustard » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 5:01 AM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #200

sgustard wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While visiting, am I free to loudly denounce the government?

No, but oddly, you can do almost anything else. Most activity in China does not feel as though it's too intruded upon by the gov.. If you don't run afoul of the party apparatus, it's not unlike many other places. I'm not justifying anything other than to say it's not a dystopia for most.

"Not dystopian except for the thought police" doesn't cut it for me.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#249

Post by astrostl » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #74

Why does the west continue to tolerate China as a trading partner? China is pretty obviously building their empire. They, as a government, appear to have almost no regard whatsoever for human life. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard whatsoever for national sovereignty. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard for the environment. It just seems completely inevitable to me that…

Trading products and services results in the trading of ideas and values as well.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#250

Post by garfieldnate » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 8:42 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #74

Why does the west continue to tolerate China as a trading partner? China is pretty obviously building their empire. They, as a government, appear to have almost no regard whatsoever for human life. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard whatsoever for national sovereignty. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard for the environment. It just seems completely inevitable to me that…

I still don't understand how we had the Olympics there. That should never have happened.