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Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

wired.com

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Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#131

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

baldfat wrote: post #16
dkersten wrote: post #5

Yay for at-will employment laws... :-( > Over the previous year, he had been living out of a suitcase, putting in 13-hour days, seven days a week. This story is a good reminder not to do this. The company will usually not return the favour, you rarely get properly rewarded for crazy hours, yet it has a major impact on your health (both mental and physical) in the long run. Not worth it. > It was not a 9 to 5 company.…

> at-will employment laws I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? I live in an At Will State (PA) and it pretty much sucks to have the knowledge I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right.

Well, you can also quit for any reason, at any time. Sure, I know that in most cases the employer has more power than the employee, but what's the reasonable alternative?

If I run a business and I can't afford you, then I have to continue employing you to the detriment of the rest of the business? One of the guys who reports to me just turned in his 2 weeks notice completely out of the blue. It puts me in a bind because we have more work than people to do it, but I don't harbor any ill will towards him.

I can understand your concern (somewhat), but at the same time, being an at will employee simply isn't something that's even on my radar.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#132

Post by nuguy »

I find it very strange that I’ve never seen a single article like this about SpaceX. Doesn’t it stand to reason that if musk runs both companies, there would also be a juicy scoop about SpaceX employees and their hardship? I suppose it has nothing to do with the fact that Tesla is publicly traded and SpaceX is not.

Elon musk was totally rational during the Thai submarine thing. He posted a series of very logical and straightforward suggestions, was then asked by the divers to implement the submarine, and was consequently called a fraud by some random person who had associated himself with the rescue. It was quite rude. Elon responses in kind and in my opinion he was very measured in his reply considering he had just received a very unfair and mean molestation of his character. But all this wired article says is that he called someone a pedo, as if he had lost his mind. A lack of essential context is conspicuously absent.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#133

Post by vonmoltke »

baldfat wrote: post #16
dkersten wrote: post #5

Yay for at-will employment laws... :-( > Over the previous year, he had been living out of a suitcase, putting in 13-hour days, seven days a week. This story is a good reminder not to do this. The company will usually not return the favour, you rarely get properly rewarded for crazy hours, yet it has a major impact on your health (both mental and physical) in the long run. Not worth it. > It was not a 9 to 5 company.…

> at-will employment laws I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? I live in an At Will State (PA) and it pretty much sucks to have the knowledge I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right.

> I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right

Yet at the same time companies are extremely paranoid about firing people without a good excuse for fear of getting sued. These two sentiments don't really line up.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#134

Post by InitialLastName »

taneq wrote: post #123
InitialLastName wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a line worker makes a mistake, they will hopefully catch that within hours. > If an executive makes a mistake, it can be months or years before the problem is obvious To finish the parable: If an engineer makes a mistake, it might not be noticed until users start to die while operating the product.

To be fair, very very few engineers are in a position where a mistake would result in sudden unexpected lethality. Usually it's more like "if an engineer makes a mistake, something breaks and a lot of money is wasted, or everything is overengineered and a a lot of money is wasted."

That's true in general, but it's less overwhelmingly true when the product is 4000 lb and traveling at >60mph. I'm especially concerned that this appears to be a cultural tendency at Tesla, so a large portion of the engineers are likely working close this point. I hope they all are allowed a solid night's sleep before their design reviews; hopefully they can catch each other's mistakes there at least.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#135

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

Nasrudith wrote: post #125
gilrain wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several billion people on this planet. If we push out the asshole savants, then there will be room for the respectful savants who have been there all along. There are too many well-educated, compassionate, clever people out there for “nobody else can do it but this specific abusive asshole” to stand up as an argument.

What is stopping the non-asshole savants from succeeding now? Would a lack of competition improve things further? And of course who decides who is an asshole and making sure they aren't the biggest one of all. Also one is dealing with far ends of the bell curve by definition - there may not be a replacement with every desired trait. Overfiltering on the irrelevant is the action of literal historical losers like tryin…

Why do you think the non-asshole savants aren't succeeding?

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#136

Post by m_mueller »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #131
baldfat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at-will employment laws I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? I live in an At Will State (PA) and it pretty much sucks to have the knowledge I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right.

Well, you can also quit for any reason, at any time. Sure, I know that in most cases the employer has more power than the employee, but what's the reasonable alternative? If I run a business and I can't afford you, then I have to continue employing you to the detriment of the rest of the business? One of the guys who reports to me just turned in his 2 weeks notice completely out of the blue. It puts me in a bind beca…

The alternative is something like 3 months notice guaranteed by law after 3 months of employment. This benefits both parties as it’s very problematic to loose employees on projects without any warning.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#137

Post by leesec »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #98
api wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... yet Tesla pushed the entire world to electrify transport. I remember years ago reading article after article and forum post after forum post about how once we finally deplete oil transportation will revert to the 19th century. I don't read that anymore. I have little doubt that without Tesla you wouldn't see a dozen other EVs on the market. You might have one or two crappy "compliance cars," but nobody else would…

> yet Tesla pushed the entire world to electrify transport Oil prices, pollution laws and incentives did, Tesla was the only one in position to profit for it timely Every company has an electric car in their blueprints, Tesla is the right size to benefit for the small demand that the market created on its own They turned a hundred million so profit this year right? That's not even enough to consider ending the market…

>Every company has an electric car in their blueprints, Tesla is the right size to benefit for the small demand that the market created on its own

They have those blueprints because of Tesla, they were not going to be nearly as quick to market with electric cars before hand.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#138

Post by tk75x »

nem000 wrote: post #28

I posted this article because I'm really afraid that many young entrepreneurs take Elon Musk (and Steve Jobs, etc.) as role models and get the impression that in order to be successful you have to be an abusive brick. I've recently read Walter Isaacson's "The Innovators" and there seem to be at least a couple of counterexamples (Robert Noyce for instance). Any other examples of tech leaders who lead their companies i…

Alexander Suvorov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Suvorov#Assessment

"He had a great simplicity of manner, and while on a campaign lived as a private soldier, sleeping on straw and contenting himself with the humblest fare.[43] Suvorov was adored by his men and considered victory dependent on the morale, training, and initiative of the front-line soldier. In battle he emphasized speed and mobility, accuracy of gunfire and the use of the bayonet, as well as detailed planning and careful strategy. He abandoned traditional drills and instead communicated with his troops in ways that proved clear and understandable. Suvorov also took great care of his army's supplies and living conditions, reducing cases of illness among his soldiers dramatically."

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#139

Post by nickik »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #131
baldfat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at-will employment laws I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? I live in an At Will State (PA) and it pretty much sucks to have the knowledge I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right.

Well, you can also quit for any reason, at any time. Sure, I know that in most cases the employer has more power than the employee, but what's the reasonable alternative? If I run a business and I can't afford you, then I have to continue employing you to the detriment of the rest of the business? One of the guys who reports to me just turned in his 2 weeks notice completely out of the blue. It puts me in a bind beca…

If you dont want people to walk out that fast put it in the contract. But you will have to pay more.

Re: Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell

#140

Post by robdachshund »

baldfat wrote: post #16
dkersten wrote: post #5

Yay for at-will employment laws... :-( > Over the previous year, he had been living out of a suitcase, putting in 13-hour days, seven days a week. This story is a good reminder not to do this. The company will usually not return the favour, you rarely get properly rewarded for crazy hours, yet it has a major impact on your health (both mental and physical) in the long run. Not worth it. > It was not a 9 to 5 company.…

> at-will employment laws I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state in State Elections. How is this not a thing? I live in an At Will State (PA) and it pretty much sucks to have the knowledge I can be fired for any reason and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the right.

I don't get why you think when you are given a job you are entitled to keep it forever. If it's an issue for you then start your own business.
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