It all comes down to the code. Good code in a bad language is better than bad code in a great language. The nice thing about RoR is it kinda forces you to do a few 'best practices things' so even newbie developers tend to end up with 'ok' code. Of course, there are many PHP frameworks that also apply this sort of way of coding. Also, note that there will be a learning curve (probably small, but you will notice it) wh…
Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
21–30 of 104 posts
Re: Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
#22MySQL is also fast and easy.
Re: Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whilst you may have an easier time finding PHP developers I actually think it is harder to find good/great PHP developers in comparison with Ruby devs. The reason for this is that Ruby/Rails development seems to focus more on TDD, CI, logic/display separation and other good practices, where as PHP, being older, hasn't traditionally had this approach. Having these practices at the core of what you do (IMO) makes you a…
It's hard to find good/great developers period and when you find them language is rarely a concern. It's easier to find PHP developers though and dispite wanting to you'll never get to staff your team with just great developers once you grow over a couple people. Say you have a job posting and you get 100 php developers and 5 Ruby ones. Of those 5 ruby ones 3 will people people who watched the screen casts. 2 will be…
Totally correct, however, with Ruby I think it's easier to find them primarily as there are less Ruby devs about, and using your example above, more or them are intermediate/senior (40% for Ruby, 10% for PHP). Then again intermediate/senior != good/great.
(Disclaimer: we're a PHP shop, but know a lot of really talented Rubyists)
Re: Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
#24Re: Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's hard to find good/great developers period and when you find them language is rarely a concern. It's easier to find PHP developers though and dispite wanting to you'll never get to staff your team with just great developers once you grow over a couple people. Say you have a job posting and you get 100 php developers and 5 Ruby ones. Of those 5 ruby ones 3 will people people who watched the screen casts. 2 will be…
> It's hard to find good/great developers period and when you find them language is rarely a concern Totally correct, however, with Ruby I think it's easier to find them primarily as there are less Ruby devs about, and using your example above, more or them are intermediate/senior (40% for Ruby, 10% for PHP). Then again intermediate/senior != good/great. (Disclaimer: we're a PHP shop, but know a lot of really talente…
Re: Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
#26I worked with Php for a couple of years and I can tell you that I absolutely thought the language was a melting pot of some great ideas with a huge bunch of WTF form the very beginning. In my opinion Php as a language is archaic and the only reason to use it now is because it makes sense for your team (because that's what your team has experience with). That being said, a good developer gets great stuff out the door regardless of what language they use to do so. Hell one of best developers I know is a Php junkie - with whom I always ended up having a slight language war with. The funny thing is that even tough he was the strongest Php advocate I know, he is now using Python for everything and agrees that it's a much better language.
Now I work almost exclusively with Ruby for webdevelopment (and also for a big part of my server scripts now that I mention it) because it just makes sense. The code is a lot more maintainable and scalable, though this is because it's generally the case that out of a batch of Ruby developers you will probably get more 'good' developers than out of a batch of Php developers with the same amount of people. It's my experience that its easy to get 50 Php developers, out of which only a couple are actually good ones, while if you get 10 Ruby devs, at least half are competent.
This rant is getting long so I'll just leave you with a thought. If the only developers you can get right now are Php devs, it makes sense to do your project in Php; however, if it's possible for you to get your hands on some Ruby or Python developers, you really can't go wrong by choosing either over Php, specially since doing so will generally have the benefits of a faster, better, and more maintainable codebase.
Re: Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
#27While RoR is getting better in this respect, PHP is vastly better documented (both officially and all throughout the web) and the community is (at least, for now) superior to RoR. This is something that simply requires more time for RoR, as PHP has had quite a few years head start to get to where it is. In practice, it honestly boils down to what you're doing and what's easier for you (and your team). If you want to…
When setting up a RoR stack, all the information I needed was available, the infrastructure was pretty stable and was easy to debug problems. PHP on the other hand, had close to no information on dealing with high load. The optcache libraries are poorly documented, nobody is really talking about it, and running anything but Apache (for performance, of course) under fcgi was horrifically problematic.
In the end we had to write our own monitoring tools to deal with all the oddities we discovered with the standard fcgi spawner (there were many), and when trying to mitigate memory leaks we discover that there are 'many known leaks in the PHP stdlib, but that's OK because everyone runs short-lived processes and restarts them regularly so we don't need to fix them'. My idea of a robust (fcgi) server would be that it doesn't require constant restarts, but that's just me.
RoR is only one framework in the vast number of Ruby libraries. I have worked in both technologies and there are more well designed, useful and current libraries and tools surrounding Ruby than there are PHP.
Quite honestly I'm sick of people apologising for it and pointing to the 'big players in web' as proof that PHP is OK. In my opinion it really needs to go away. In the years I worked with it, it taught me nothing but bad habits. I'm not the only one.
EDIT: Two Ruby libraries I used recently that were very high quality were Nokogiri (HTML/XML parsing) and Typhoeus (HTTP library wrapping libcurl). I don't recall ever seeing anything like those in PHP that had such intuitive APIs. Can anyone provide any counterpoints of better libraries in PHP that don't exist in Ruby? P.S. Wordpress is not an answer.
Re: Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
#28If you're not doing a computationally expensive startup, speed won't matter much. If you ever get to the size where it does (i.e. Facebook) - there are always solutions.
I've been seriously considering trying to start up an alternative language that takes the best parts out of PHP, but drops all the backwards compatible nonsense. It really has some great features but the annoyances will scare off most top developers - and you're left with a crowd of 85% script kiddies and only 15% developers that actually learnt to use the language properly... and trying to find one of those 15% isnt easy.
Re: Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
#29I do have to say, being a single coder/sysadmin/tech-cofounder, it has been an uphill battle and really it's a full-time job, but I make do with a couple of hours on the side as a student.
Re: Ask HN: Is PHP/MySQL Still Practical for Building Web Applications?
#30Yes.