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China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

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Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#171

Post by NeoBasilisk »

blhack wrote: post #74

Why does the west continue to tolerate China as a trading partner? China is pretty obviously building their empire. They, as a government, appear to have almost no regard whatsoever for human life. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard whatsoever for national sovereignty. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard for the environment. It just seems completely inevitable to me that…

Because it makes powerful people fabulously rich. That is all you need to know.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#172

Post by stanfordkid »

Why do people fall for this sort of stuff so easily? There is a pattern of western governments regularly organizing subversive, extremist, headline grabbing testimonies to further foreign policy objectives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony

I don't think the Chinese government is great either, but I'm pretty cognizant that the level of anti-China FUD is directly proportional to the accelerating economic growth and foreign influence of the nation. China is causing very positive economic development in Africa, Pakistan and other regions that are more than happy to partner with it.

I for one am not so worried about a Chinese Surveillance state being thrust upon Europe or the US.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#173

Post by EGreg »

veridies wrote: post #170
throwba43yt wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US talks about respecting human rights, but has no problem with 1 million dead Iraqi civilians. Individual Americans may respect human rights. Just like individual Chinese do as well. But when you challenge them as a nation, well, then the needs of the stong outweigh the needs of the weak.

> has no problem with 1 million dead Iraqi civilians And how many Kurds were killed by Saddam Hussein? How many Shias? I think the Iraq war was a terrible mistake but that doesn't mean that supporting it means you don't care about Iraqis.

Fine let’s leave Iraq to the side. We funded militants in Syria against Assad and sold weapons to Saudis against Yemen. We looked the other way as Pakistan genocidally raped Bangladesh in the war of independence. How about the United Fruit Company? School of the Americas? Wait how about this list:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in...

Please go justify that and then say USA cares about sovereignty of nations!

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#174

Post by seanmcdirmid »

ryacko wrote: post #168
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China agreed to stop using prisoners as forced organ donors many times before 2015. They didn't even say "we really mean it this time", so I'm not sure how much credibility you can take from their statement. The big problem is that the provinces and local governments aren't really that great at following the central government's direction unless the latter is really serious (who can't focus their attention on some ma…

China has mass surveillance. The amount of money that would change hands for organs would raise red flags, as well as the likelihood of using a known broker.

Just because China has mass surveillance and is partially a police state, it still is a chaotic place where you can mostly jay walk with impunity. State organs are poorly organized and integrated, and there is no easy way to verify the implementation of whatever edicts come from the top.

The central government also don't care if some local politicians are involved in the prison organ trade for a few extra rambos, as long as they keep it under the radar....

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#175

Post by sgustard »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #116
blhack wrote: post #74

Why does the west continue to tolerate China as a trading partner? China is pretty obviously building their empire. They, as a government, appear to have almost no regard whatsoever for human life. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard whatsoever for national sovereignty. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard for the environment. It just seems completely inevitable to me that…

It's not as atrocious as you think. The united states has its' own fair share of heinous crimes as well. I feel a lot of people have this perception of China as a Technologically powerful North Korea... Nothing can be further from the truth. China is like an asian tiger... Japan, Singapore or Taiwan.. or maybe not exactly an asian tiger, but somewhere in-between North Korea and an Asian Tiger but leaning much more cl…

While visiting, am I free to loudly denounce the government?

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#176

Post by EGreg »

sneak wrote: post #142
blhack wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We (the U.S) tolerate their disrespect for human rights because we also do not respect human rights I'm sorry but this statement is just absolutely and completely ridiculous. I don't know if you've either never been to The United States, or you've never left The United States, but the difference between the respect that we have for human rights, and the respect that much of the rest of the world has, is stark.

How many other nations run a global network of unacknowledged torture prisons? How many of those other nations have broken into their national legislatures to cover it up? https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/11/senator_feinstein_o... The United States pays a lot of lip service to human rights, while wholesale ignoring them when convenient. Did we forget about Manning’s torture, Assange’s fake arrest warrant, Snowde…

A lot of nations have torture prisons.

USA has one of the highest incarceration rates due to the stupid war on drugs. It has enabled drug gangs - no less scary than ISIS yet ignored by our media and populace - to take over large swaths of central America. And so on.

All we care about is blocking refugees from getting in.

HOWEVER!!!! That is external.

Internally, the USA has some of the most respect for human rights and freedoms of any country.

This would never happen on any significant scale in the USA:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_...

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#177

Post by thenanyu »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #140
throwba43yt wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US talks about respecting human rights, but has no problem with 1 million dead Iraqi civilians. Individual Americans may respect human rights. Just like individual Chinese do as well. But when you challenge them as a nation, well, then the needs of the stong outweigh the needs of the weak.

>> The US talks about respecting human rights, but has no problem with 1 million dead Iraqi civilians. So you took a poll, "do you give a rats @ss that 1 Million Iraqis were killed by USA" and most people didn't care? Let's tone it down, USA did not go there to kill a million people, it happened because of the war, and Saddam might have killed 2 mil if he was alive for Arab Spring. Not saying that Iraq war was justif…

> So you took a poll, "do you give a rats @ss that 1 Million Iraqis were killed by USA" and most people didn't care?

Yes, even with the strawman wording you put forth, I suspect that > 50% would come down on the "don't care" side.

If you worded it in a way that was designed to tease out revealed preferences, like: "Have you considered the plight of Iraqis in the last year?" you would get even more dramatic results.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#178

Post by nneonneo »

elefanten wrote: post #129
jjcc wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The behaviour of these guys you observed is already implying something: They are a little bit special. If you have a few Chinese friends, ask them if they know about "独运轮". Ask a few, preferablly with no strong political opinions. The guys you met belong to "轮", the last group of the 3. Together with other 2 groups, "轮" unintentionally built support to current Chinese govenment among oversea Chinese especially young…

This sounds interesting, but doesn't help understand what you're trying to explain. At least not right now, at my computer. Are there any written explanations you could point us to? edit: Google translates those three characters as "exclusive wheel"... the mystery continues

I don't know what point the parent is trying to make either, but the three characters mean:

独 "dú", "independence" - refers to independence movements in Taiwan, Xinjiang (Uighurs) and Tibet

运 "yùn", "movement" - refers to the "minyun" democracy movement in China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_democracy_movement)

轮 "lún", "wheel" - refers to Falun Gong

So basically, the major movements and organizations that the Chinese government opposes. China attempts to quell independence efforts in these three regions, puts down and censors information about democracy (see e.g. Tiananmen, 1989), and suppresses the Falun Gong cult/movement.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#179

Post by trhway »

ryacko wrote: post #168
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China agreed to stop using prisoners as forced organ donors many times before 2015. They didn't even say "we really mean it this time", so I'm not sure how much credibility you can take from their statement. The big problem is that the provinces and local governments aren't really that great at following the central government's direction unless the latter is really serious (who can't focus their attention on some ma…

China has mass surveillance. The amount of money that would change hands for organs would raise red flags, as well as the likelihood of using a known broker.

>The amount of money that would change hands for organs would raise red flags

you probably haven't noticed that China is the country of red flags?

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-10/08/c_134693630.htm

(sorry, man, you've just walked into a similar old USSR (also a country of red flags in all the senses) joke)

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#180

Post by nneonneo »

stanfordkid wrote: post #172

Why do people fall for this sort of stuff so easily? There is a pattern of western governments regularly organizing subversive, extremist, headline grabbing testimonies to further foreign policy objectives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony I don't think the Chinese government is great either, but I'm pretty cognizant that the level of anti-China FUD is directly proportional to the accelerating economic…

This probably isn't even organized by Western governments - most likely this is meant to support the Falun Gong. I've seen a noticeable uptick in Falun Gong's efforts to highlight the organ harvesting issue over the last few months.
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