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Does it matter where you go to college?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#11

Post by matty_makes »

basseq wrote: post #6

So it's a tautology. Prestigious schools attract top talent because top talent goes to prestigious schools. The best way to be successful is to be top talent—regardless of where you go to school for the majority—but top talent are likely to be those people who push and stress and play to win the "collegiate sweepstakes".

I think you missed the point of the article. It only matters for certain demographics. The byline says it all: "they can have a big effect if you’re not rich, not white, or not a guy"

I'm not sure what 'rich' means in the article, but if it means 'not poor' then for middle class white males it doesn't matter what school is on your resume.

Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#12

Post by thrwthrw93223 »

CompelTechnic wrote: post #10
thrwthrw93223 wrote: post #5

There is a lot of talk about elite universities offering full-tuition to those that make under a certain income, but what this ignores is usually you have to be in a certain income bracket to obtain certain SAT, AP scores along with the right ECs and upper division college prep courses. This usually means attending the best private, public, or STEM magnent school in your state, which sadly most families in those inco…

It is not mandatory to be in a certain income bracket to get a high score on your SAT or on your AP exams. If the universities want to help low income students, and are only able to help a certain number of them given the resources they have available, academic merit is the best way to do it.

It isn't mandatory, but it certainly helps when you can pay for private tutors or professional consulatants that craft your application package. Students that tend to score high on SATs tend to come from higher income brackets. It also hurts when you attend a school that doesn't offer an expansive list of AP courses, or if you come from a family that never attended college and do not even know what the college process is like.

Edit: To your "This is patently untrue" comment. Taking AP courses and scoring 5s on the exams is pretty standard for applicants getting into elite colleges. By not taking those courses you are huritng yourself when applying to such places.

Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#13

Post by stcredzero »

commandlinefan wrote: post #3

I think that we idealize that it doesn't matter, but at a certain level, it does matter - even decades later. I went to no-name university and graduated with a high GPA in CS in '95. My work experience since has been solid, and I have some respectable accomplishments, but places like Google and Facebook don't even notice me. The only "black mark" on my resume that I can imagine would be holding me back is "graduated…

A professor of mine mentioned a study by Bell/AT&T from mid 20th century which found that the success of their executives was correlated with how well they did at the school they went to, and less with which school they went to. I took that class in 1988, and the study was already old by then.

Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#14

Post by csa »

thrwthrw93223 wrote: post #5

There is a lot of talk about elite universities offering full-tuition to those that make under a certain income, but what this ignores is usually you have to be in a certain income bracket to obtain certain SAT, AP scores along with the right ECs and upper division college prep courses. This usually means attending the best private, public, or STEM magnent school in your state, which sadly most families in those inco…

This is at best a half truth. Going to these schools helps, but it is not necessary.

There are an abundance of people who are qualified to get into elite universities at less-than-best schools in a given state.

There are three main issues that I see:

1. They self-select out of applying. They know lots of smart people, but they don’t know anyone else who applied, so those elite schools must be impossible to get into.

2. Their teachers/administrators have no idea how to write a strong recommendation for a stellar student. The applicants don’t know how to choose people who can write good recommendations.

3. The applicants don’t know about the small tweaks in their extracurriculars that will make them standout (e.g., demonstrating leadership, vision, etc.), and/or they don’t know how to write about their considerable achievements in a compelling way (e.g., I’ve heard an incredible and incredibly modest person saying that their considerable achievements were not worth discussing on an appication because “Well, what else would you do? Isn’t this just normal?” Answer, no, it was not normal.).

Note also that plenty of the “poor” students have been recruited in one way or another, with athletes probably being the biggest recruiting pool.

Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#15

Post by pl1234 »

groth wrote: post #8

tldr; "The simplest answer to the question “Do elite colleges matter?” is: It depends on who you are. In the big picture, elite colleges don’t seem to do much extra for rich white guys. But if you’re not rich, not white, or not a guy, the elite-college effect is huge. It increases earnings for minorities and low-income students, and it encourages women to delay marriage and work more, even though it doesn’t raise the…

"encourages women to delay marriage and work more"

Horrible for society.

Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#16

Post by thrwthrw93223 »

csa wrote: post #14
thrwthrw93223 wrote: post #5

There is a lot of talk about elite universities offering full-tuition to those that make under a certain income, but what this ignores is usually you have to be in a certain income bracket to obtain certain SAT, AP scores along with the right ECs and upper division college prep courses. This usually means attending the best private, public, or STEM magnent school in your state, which sadly most families in those inco…

This is at best a half truth. Going to these schools helps, but it is not necessary. There are an abundance of people who are qualified to get into elite universities at less-than-best schools in a given state. There are three main issues that I see: 1. They self-select out of applying. They know lots of smart people, but they don’t know anyone else who applied, so those elite schools must be impossible to get into.…

What you wrote only adds to, not negates my overall message. These are the products of being poor.

Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#17

Post by csa »

thrwthrw93223 wrote: post #12
CompelTechnic wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not mandatory to be in a certain income bracket to get a high score on your SAT or on your AP exams. If the universities want to help low income students, and are only able to help a certain number of them given the resources they have available, academic merit is the best way to do it.

It isn't mandatory, but it certainly helps when you can pay for private tutors or professional consulatants that craft your application package. Students that tend to score high on SATs tend to come from higher income brackets. It also hurts when you attend a school that doesn't offer an expansive list of AP courses, or if you come from a family that never attended college and do not even know what the college proces…

> It also hurts when you attend a school that doesn't offer an expansive list of AP coursess

This is patently untrue.

The rest of youe post is accurate, although the words help and hurt are the keys to keeping it accurate. None of these things are required.

Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#18

Post by cozzyd »

This is not what these studies measure, but people in Academia are much more likely to have gone to elite grad schools (in their respective fields, which is not the same as undergrad rankings of course). And, in my experience (Stanford undergrad, MIT PhD, currently UChicago postdoc), elite grad schools predominantly select people from elite undergrad institutions. It's possible to get into a great grad program from a non-elite school, but it's much harder, while someone like me in the middle of my class at Stanford was able to get into good grad schools without too much trouble.

This is probably not just due to snobbery; it's much more likely for the admissions committee to have heard of your recommenders and such. If you do research with a famous professor at a non-elite school you'd probably have similar results, but the barrier is a bit higher.

Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#19

Post by lucozade »

matty_makes wrote: post #11
basseq wrote: post #6

So it's a tautology. Prestigious schools attract top talent because top talent goes to prestigious schools. The best way to be successful is to be top talent—regardless of where you go to school for the majority—but top talent are likely to be those people who push and stress and play to win the "collegiate sweepstakes".

I think you missed the point of the article. It only matters for certain demographics. The byline says it all: "they can have a big effect if you’re not rich, not white, or not a guy" I'm not sure what 'rich' means in the article, but if it means 'not poor' then for middle class white males it doesn't matter what school is on your resume.

> for middle class white males it doesn't matter what school is on your resume

That's not what the studies show. What the studies show is that, if you're a well-off white male who is in the top 1% academically then it doesn't matter, long-term financially, where you go to university.

I mean, I found the article interesting but that's a pretty niche bunch of chaps right there.

Re: Does it matter where you go to college?

#20

Post by csa »

thrwthrw93223 wrote: post #16
csa wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is at best a half truth. Going to these schools helps, but it is not necessary. There are an abundance of people who are qualified to get into elite universities at less-than-best schools in a given state. There are three main issues that I see: 1. They self-select out of applying. They know lots of smart people, but they don’t know anyone else who applied, so those elite schools must be impossible to get into.…

What you wrote only adds to, not negates my overall message. These are the products of being poor.

I think the admissions practices are largely fine, and they dont, by design, aim to keep poor people out (as you suggested).

I think that these schools could do a better job at educating potential applicants and the circle of people around said potential applicants much better. In my opinion, the internet has democratized this process considerably over the past 20 years or so, but I think there is still considerable room for improvement, especially by the universities themselves.

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