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Second Canadian 'missing' in China

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Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#71

Post by barry-cotter »

latch wrote: post #41
nabla9 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different systems and real differences. China does not have the rule of law or separation of powers like western countries have. In the west it's not easy for the executive branch to interfere with individual cases. US or Canada executive branch can't just tell justice department to arrest someone. In China that's possible and common.

> China does not have the rule of law A quick look at Wiki suggest that there's at least some aspects of rule of law in China (1) - although with some defects. I don't have the background to compare these defects with those of any other country (like the US's high incarceration rate (in general, and of minorities specifically)). I have lived a few years in China and Hong Kong and know a few lawyers and accountants bo…

The fact that you conflate Hong Kong and the PRC mainland tells quite a lot. Hong Kong had the rule of law and still has a close approximation. The mainland doesn’t. If you knew accountants in both places you doubtless know that an audit from a HK firm is held in vastly greater esteem than a Chinese one because they’re less likely to be leaned on or threatened.

Did you know any business people? If you did you know how much contracts are worth when the other party has pull/关系.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#72

Post by sbmthakur »

paraditedc wrote: post #24
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations Unlike in China, Canadian and American courts are fiercely independent of the executive.

I've seen this brought up quite a lot, but to me, a Chinese national, it's confusing how judiciary branch is independent. Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court? Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case? Edit: Great. Thanks for the downvotes as an…

> Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court?

I am not from the US but another democratic country. So I think I can provide an answer.

Being nominated(in democracies) doesn't imply that they've to play by the nominator's rules. In democracies, all branches of the Government have to work by the constitution(unlike in China where they are answerable to the Party). For example, in India, the judge of the Supreme Court is appointed by the President(head of the executive) who is essentially just a figurehead for the legislature(or the Parliament). So, indirectly the legislature nominates the Supreme court judge but Supreme court occasionally strikes down laws that it finds unconstitutional.

> Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case?

Not sure about this but the executive/legislature often has powers to overturn the Supreme court's decisions. In India, the legislature often passes laws that by bypass/overturn Supreme court's decisions. In the case of the US, I think the President can do this as the US is essentially a Presidential form of government.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#73

Post by lyrachord »

str33t_punk wrote: post #9

China is making themselves look horrible here. Ms. Meng has a proper reason for being arrested (the allegations are that she committed fraud to bypass US sanctions against Iran and sell them US tech by lying about HuaWei and SkyComs involvement to HSBC). There will be a trial, this investigation has been happening for years, and it is by the Justice Department, not a request from Trump (who seems to have been caught…

[dead]

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#74

Post by lyrachord »

mywtfmp3 wrote: post #31
ralph84 wrote: post #7

I have little doubt both of these guys are spies. A guy working for an NGO that does "crisis research" and a guy leading tours in North Korea. LOL. Any country with sufficiently advanced counter-intelligence has a list of spies operating on their soil that they monitor and keep in reserve for when it's politically favorable to round them up.

1. Canada doesn't spy China. They cannot be spies. 2. China is an authoritarian state. The two Canadian are innocent. 3. I have made my mind before reading the article.

[dead]

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#75

Post by burfog »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #39
paraditedc wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this brought up quite a lot, but to me, a Chinese national, it's confusing how judiciary branch is independent. Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court? Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case? Edit: Great. Thanks for the downvotes as an…

> Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? Independent, not sovereign [1]. The branches can check each other, but a judge over whom the President has pretty much zero power will decide if Ms. Meng is guilty or not. For example, one of Trump's nominees recently voted to keep existing case law regarding Planned Parenthood in place [2]. This disappointed conservatives. But there isn't anything the President can…

High conviction rates are not bad. A low rate would likely mean that lots of innocent people are being made to face trial. Alternately, it could be a sign of incompetence.

It is easy to make the rate low: prosecute based on mere suspicion, or have the prosecutor be a person who barely graduated from law school.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#77

Post by sjellis »

paraditedc wrote: post #24
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations Unlike in China, Canadian and American courts are fiercely independent of the executive.

I've seen this brought up quite a lot, but to me, a Chinese national, it's confusing how judiciary branch is independent. Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court? Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case? Edit: Great. Thanks for the downvotes as an…

> Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court?

There's deliberately limited legal ability for the legislature or the executive to influence or impose penalties on a serving judge, and the rule of law means that the president can't apply extra-legal pressure either. A judge could removed from office for really extreme or criminal behaviour, but that's considered extraordinary.

Day-to-day, judges can rule against governments and politicians without any fear of reprisals. The selection process just weeds out people who are likely to frequently make such rulings.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#78

Post by abc-xyz »

latch wrote: post #54
curiousgal wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extrapolating from that, I always find it amusing when people seem to have global politics figured out, not realizing that it's a complex dynamic system with hundreds if not thousands of agents at play, when they ,the very same people, would be lost watching a two-player poker game.

It's concerning. People have strong opinions (bordering on it being a "fact") about places they've never been to (or near). They might have never even left their country. It isn't something they've studied, it isn't remotely related to their work. But they still _know_ how it is.

I shamefully lived in China for a long period, and almost every Chinese person I've talked to was either misinformed or oblivious to the kind of negative news you see discussed on HN. You can learn a lot, both negative and positive, about living in the country that you'd have no way of knowing if you hadn't been there (or done a lot of research), e.g. how foreigners are not allowed to stay at most cheapish hotels and will even be turned away from a lot of apartments. But by living in China then you're less likely to know about these news because if it isn't censored then you'll be exposed to their propaganda instead. And things are going to get much worse when the social credit system really kicks in and the citizens benefit from spreading propaganda.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#79

Post by RidingPegasus »

briandon wrote: post #61
RidingPegasus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UN sanctions were lifted on 16 January 2016. The US unilaterally decided in May this year they want to pull out of that agreement. The EU is still pushing ahead to have their largest companies trading with Iran despite American protestations. We both know nothing will happen to Daimler or Societe General execs.

Meng has been arrested for her alleged involvement in sanctions violations that took place sometime between 2010-2013 (i.e. during the U.N. Sanctions on Iran era), not for violations of the the current US-led sanctions. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-...

I stand corrected, according to the article she was somehow involved with Skycom and they sold computers to Iran during UN sanctions.

> Skycom tried to sell 1.3 million euros ($1.7 million) worth of Hewlett-Packard Co. computer gear in late 2010, according to Reuters.

How egregious that may be is up for people to decide themselves. Bail was set at $7m.

Were the escalating tensions not so serious there'd be room here for a joke about Huawei doing the west a favour with such a poor choice of manufacturer.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#80

Post by [deleted] »

paraditedc wrote: post #24
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations Unlike in China, Canadian and American courts are fiercely independent of the executive.

I've seen this brought up quite a lot, but to me, a Chinese national, it's confusing how judiciary branch is independent. Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court? Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case? Edit: Great. Thanks for the downvotes as an…

[deleted]
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