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Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#271

Post by h1d »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #136
mscasts wrote: post #2

That is really something, before as a dev coming from linux when I first was about to login on a Windows Server I didn't understand how to do it since it were no SSH. Administrating the server via a GUI always felt backwards somehow. Why waste CPU cycles on rendering a UI when the CLI is so great (on linux)?

Microsoft's GUI management tools were really good and generally very discoverable. IMO they were a much better way to manage an OS than cryptically named CLI programs and text files. And most of them worked remotely. And by comparison to modern software they can not even remotely be considered bloated. Every electron application ever made is larger than all of RSAT. Now of course they suck ass because MS has no idea…

GUI is something you can't easily copy and paste which is s real killer. And with options spread all over with 3 level depth of more "options" is getting old quick.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#272

Post by h1d »

nojvek wrote: post #177

OpenSSH with powershell is such a great combo. I was very skeptical about powershell, but after writing many scripts I’m a convert. Powershell does so many things nicer than bash. It feels like a real programming language but still not loosing its scripting roots. For running tests for a GUI application which requires us to spin thousands of Machines in parallel, manage job queues, interact with Windows UI automation…

I just can't get over the verbosity of PowerShell.

With all the "do 1 thing well" utilities glued by bash, it just feels real effective.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#273

Post by h1d »

nwah1 wrote: post #71
sys_64738 wrote: post #68

Microsoft is becoming the defacto leader in open source.

This is almost undeniable. Seems like everyone and their mother are using vscode, typescript is huge, .NET Core is FOSS, PowerShell is now open source, etc etc. The Language Server Protocol has revolutionized IDEs in general. And now that they own GitHub (and their projects like Atom), it seems like the entire FOSS developer workflow is likely to be from MS-derived projects. Which I'm sure they are hoping will transl…

Only if they try to open source visual studio (not the code) which is choking themselves by putting a barrier to entry for their own platform with not so cheap pricing model.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#274

Post by h1d »

nwrk wrote: post #93

Oh no, now we need to train all winIT how to use command line instead of mouse. Always, laughed while configuring/managing MS products. Great news anyway. Congrats on launch (2018)

Now we need to train UNIX admins how to do it without bash.

SSH alone doesn't seem any good without all the UNIX tools.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#275

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #266
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terminal is not the same thing as CLI or TUI. I don't have a problem with either of the latter interfaces, I have a problem with archaic emulation of long obsolete hardware with in-band signaling.

Sorry, misunderstood. Yes, VT100 is rather archaic. Is there a more modern alternative?

A modern console would use out of band signaling for things like cursor position, colors, size changes, etc. Windows consoles work like that using API calls, which is perhaps not ideal for quickly hacking things together but at least doesn't wig out on you if something throws arbitrary bytes into the stream.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#277

Post by donavanm »

pritambaral wrote: post #144
donavanm wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know if that means they didnt understand it. It reads like they were trying to solve the underlying problems with a different approach. SSH is an awesome tool & capability as a relatively high level network channel. The defacto “shell” approach leads to a lot of problems when used as a management device. It encourages adhoc, unstructured, and opaque changes. Managing your hosts via Secure Shell simply leads to…

> Managing your hosts via Secure Shell simply leads to bespoke, unrepeatable, outcomes and crushing debt. SSH is not for management. SSH is for remote access. What people do with their remote access is not SSH's concern. Ad-hoc management is just as possible and easy via RSAT and PowerShell. Hell, I've seen management via ansible devolve into a mess of unmaintainable, unrepeatable script heap. > Moving to a well stru…

I tried to distinguish between SSH the multiplexed secure network channel provider and Secure Shell, the default and overwhelmingly popular use case of SSH. Theyre different, but generally conflated. I have no real problem with the transport mechanism.

To answer your questions you probably have a dedicated on host agent. See MCollective or AWS SSM for examples Im familiar with. It doesnt really matter that the transport or message model is. Its more important that your actions are discrete, well modeled, with defined & structured inputs and outputs. Its also inportant that theres an intermediary so you can get the scope of control away relying on client and end hosts.

For #1 interactive is almost orthoganal. For #1 & #2 Its that you have structure, repeatability, validation, auditing, testability, etc. #3 again a transport problem, or similar.

For your last point my issue is if you treat dev and prod as similar change and access problems. The environment can certainly look or feel the same. But the output of dev should be discrete managed artifacts. If you need to do adhoc exploratory stuff on prod thats a good sign you lack control or valid synoptic model of your systems.

That said, we may be trying to solve different problems. I have lots of teams, more ICs, and many hosts. Getting from artifice to industry is important at some point.

Edit: go check out the mcollective demos to get an idea of how you can change the access/use model.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#278

Post by donavanm »

mycall wrote: post #140
slededit wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already had group policy for structured administration. What Windows was missing specifically was a non-GUI way for that unstructured "get in there and fix the problem" work flow. Structured workflows may well be better for you, but quick and dirty has a lot of appeal. Sometimes you just have to give people the candy they want - even if its not good for them.

> "get in there and fix the problem" work flow Isn't this an anti-pattern considering the cloud tenants of treating machines as cattle not pets?

Cloud is irrelevant. Its scope and repeatable results. A decade ago I had these problems with owned facilities, owned hardware, and dedicated internal teams. But it was thousands of hosts, multiple datacenters, and thousands of internal users. My personal break point is/was “a few hundred” hosts. Below that bespoke management can scale at a reasonable human:resource ratio. Above that you need too many people, and then you cant control or inspect the rate of change or variance.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#279

Post by donavanm »

nineteen999 wrote: post #186
donavanm wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know if that means they didnt understand it. It reads like they were trying to solve the underlying problems with a different approach. SSH is an awesome tool & capability as a relatively high level network channel. The defacto “shell” approach leads to a lot of problems when used as a management device. It encourages adhoc, unstructured, and opaque changes. Managing your hosts via Secure Shell simply leads to…

Where does your opinion on Ansible lie then? It's a systems configuration and orchestration tool that by default, uses SSH as the transport. For Ansible users, Windows getting OpenSSH is a huge win, since we (presumably) will no longer have to jump through all the hoops WinRM throws you in order to configure Windows machines remotely.

See sibling. I dont have a problem witb using ssh as transport per se. Its using adhoc/bespoke Shell for introducing change. Its a bit unrelated but I, personally, lean more towards declarative than procedural and highly value intermediated access. Which doesnt quite match ansible afaik.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#280

Post by jodrellblank »

slededit wrote: post #257
jodrellblank wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes you seem like you don't understand the point of PowerShell remoting. Passing serialised scriptblocks to the remote host, executing them, and getting serialized objects back. Meaning you can pass serialisable objects around, handle errors, the multiple output streams, etc. over the remoting connection. Because it's integrated into the language, you can pull PowerShell modules over from the remote host to th…

The mental overhead of this is much higher than the concept of “I’m logged in to this remote machine - all actions happen there”. That’s why I can guarantee Remote Desktop has more usage than these remote rpc calls for ad-hoc work. Powershell is quite powerful but it’s features are more for programmers than users. Because of its complexity RPC is not a replacement for ssh where you are typing commands directly to the…

Is Enter-PsSession not "I’m logged in to this remote machine - all actions happen there"?
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