Second Canadian 'missing' in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#21

Post by wisdomoftheages » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:35 AM UTC

Meng was arrested for fraud, lying to U.S. banks and violating financial disclosure laws; no different than any garden variety money-launderer.

Most importantly, she's had a day in court, been granted bail in a hearing that was open to the media, and if extradited, will receive due process and a fair criminal trial where everyone will get to see the evidence against her.

These two men have been 'disappeared'. Good luck ever seeing any shred of due process for them. Not even the most shameless Xi mouthpiece can credibly claim that China has anything resembling an independent judicial system.

It's not surprising that all Chinese media and all commentators loyal to the Xi clique have cynically framed this in terms of Meng being 'abducted' or 'held hostage'. The worldview of authoritarian, personal dictatorship cannot even conceive of due process and the rule of law (which also accounts for some of the idiotic off-the-cuff remarks that Trump has made - fortunately, the U.S. still has a semi-functioning government with separation of powers and an independent judiciary, so he's not really in the saddle here)

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#22

Post by nabla9 » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:38 AM UTC

hucxsz wrote: post #13

str33t_punk wrote: post #9

China is making themselves look horrible here. Ms. Meng has a proper reason for being arrested (the allegations are that she committed fraud to bypass US sanctions against Iran and sell them US tech by lying about HuaWei and SkyComs involvement to HSBC). There will be a trial, this investigation has been happening for years, and it is by the Justice Department, not a request from Trump (who seems to have been caught…

How did you come to a conclusion that randomly arrested two people? Double standard?

Different systems and real differences. China does not have the rule of law or separation of powers like western countries have.

In the west it's not easy for the executive branch to interfere with individual cases. US or Canada executive branch can't just tell justice department to arrest someone. In China that's possible and common.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#23

Post by wisdomoftheages » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:39 AM UTC

RidingPegasus wrote: post #2

Outline for us Indochina types: https://outline.com/qUJvaJ Quite surprised Canada has gotten itself into this considering the potential for escalation which is now playing out. A "NGO worker", possibly of natsec value and now another Canadian national. What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty? Watching the US and China duke it out in a trade war is somewhat in other countries interest economically, hig…

The idea that Meng was arrested as part of a ploy in the 'trade war' is completely unfounded. These investigations take years and are initiated by the independent justice system. Trump can run his mouth off as much as he likes, but the U.S. system is not structured like China and the executive does not have supreme authority to direct arrests and prosecutions.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#24

Post by paraditedc » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:40 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12

kannanvijayan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this perspective, with the addendum that the US president's statements might end up working against the prosecutors requesting extradition. It raises the real possibility that Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations as opposed to the legal facts surrounding the foundation of the extradition request - an argument I would expect her lawyers to seize upon. Before the…

> Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations Unlike in China, Canadian and American courts are fiercely independent of the executive.

I've seen this brought up quite a lot, but to me, a Chinese national, it's confusing how judiciary branch is independent.

Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court?

Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case?

Edit: Great. Thanks for the downvotes as answers. Now I have a better understanding of how things work in the US.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#25

Post by vivaforever » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:40 AM UTC

str33t_punk wrote: post #9

China is making themselves look horrible here. Ms. Meng has a proper reason for being arrested (the allegations are that she committed fraud to bypass US sanctions against Iran and sell them US tech by lying about HuaWei and SkyComs involvement to HSBC). There will be a trial, this investigation has been happening for years, and it is by the Justice Department, not a request from Trump (who seems to have been caught…

Why US sanctions is legit and should be obey by any country?

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#26

Post by RidingPegasus » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:40 AM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #6

RidingPegasus wrote: post #2

Outline for us Indochina types: https://outline.com/qUJvaJ Quite surprised Canada has gotten itself into this considering the potential for escalation which is now playing out. A "NGO worker", possibly of natsec value and now another Canadian national. What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty? Watching the US and China duke it out in a trade war is somewhat in other countries interest economically, hig…

"What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty?" Justice? Transparency? Rule of law? Freedom of conscience and expression? 'Doing business with Iran' is not what she was arrested for - she was arrested for proving tech made in the USA to Iran, which is definitely a different thing. Grated it was very low tech.

> Crown counsel told a Friday bail hearing in B.C. Supreme Court in Vancouver Friday that Meng is "charged with conspiracy to defraud multiple international institutions"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing...

Do you foresee extradition requests for EU executives doing business with Iran?

https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how...

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#27

Post by nutcracker46 » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:41 AM UTC

fatjokes wrote: post #5

The US has played Canada. They request this, Canada performs the arrest, Trump plays good cop ("I'll intervene if I have to"), and China can't retaliate against the US but can take it out on Canada. I'm sure Trump is giddy given how much he dislikes Trudeau.

Nobody played Canada. There is an extradition treaty which specifies when one country may arrest suspects in the other country.

Rule of law.

Neither popular opinion nor pressure from government executives supersede the law. If the law is thought to be wrong, then a challenge may be taken to the courts.

When will China's pleistocene concept of law catch up to the 21st century?

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#28

Post by tjpnz » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:41 AM UTC

jiveturkey wrote: post #3

canada had to have seen this coming.

Canada was fulfilling an extradition treaty it has with the United States. It really had no say in the matter.

This should be of surprise to nobody.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#29

Post by wisdomoftheages » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:43 AM UTC

RidingPegasus wrote: post #26

sonnyblarney wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty?" Justice? Transparency? Rule of law? Freedom of conscience and expression? 'Doing business with Iran' is not what she was arrested for - she was arrested for proving tech made in the USA to Iran, which is definitely a different thing. Grated it was very low tech.

> Crown counsel told a Friday bail hearing in B.C. Supreme Court in Vancouver Friday that Meng is "charged with conspiracy to defraud multiple international institutions" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing... Do you foresee extradition requests for EU executives doing business with Iran? https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how...

The crime is not trading with Iran, the crime is defrauding the US financial system in order to do it. For some reason, this is framed as though Huawei is accused of trading with Iran completely independently of the United States. That's not the case at all.

Re: Second Canadian 'missing' in China

#30

Post by curiousgal » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 5:43 AM UTC

wybiral wrote: post #20

People are jumping to a number of conclusions in these threads with little evidence. The rapid down-voting is crazy. There's no confirmation that this had anything to do with Meng, or that these people weren't guilty of something worth investigating. Wait for more details before assuming that everything is connected.

Extrapolating from that, I always find it amusing when people seem to have global politics figured out, not realizing that it's a complex dynamic system with hundreds if not thousands of agents at play, when they ,the very same people, would be lost watching a two-player poker game.