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Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

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51–60 of 111 posts

Re: Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

#51
post #8

But exercise does: https://www.news-medical.net/news/20160324/Exercise-slows-do...

I got my genes sequenced recently and it turns out I have a mutant gene that predisposes me to Alzheimers - APOE e4. it's a cholesterol shuttling gene! Very important to keep low fat, it effects your entire body.

low fat as in to not be overweight, or consume a diet that is low in fat? I don't want any of them 'zheimers

Re: Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

#52
There's been a long standing idea that dementia and Alzheimer can be prevented by mental exercise. It intuitively seems like a good hypothesis, but as this an other studies in the comments show, it's not true.

It is difficult to really test for this though, because you can't control for people's amount of mental exertion, gaming, learning and puzzle solving over their entire lives, so we substitute things like "knows more than one language fluently," something we can objectively measure and see if there's a correlation. This particular study used a group of people that took the same intelligence test when they were young.

There's been some research that shows some older people's brains have trouble metabolizing glucose and other sugars, and that diets that push ketosis in older people (higher fats, coconut oil, less cereal/crabs) can help some people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yooNuOKsa1Q

Re: Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

#54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't really criticize it only based on those numbers, at least not without looking at similar numbers from other cohort studies with the same length. Well, one can't criticize the quality of the study without looking how well other studies did. But even if all studies involve a massive drop-out rate, the drop-out rate still seems like something to look at in evaluating the accuracy of the study. I mean my concer…

15 -years- is a LONG time for a study. I'm not sure about the dropout rates, but it is a real statistical issue. I'm just not sure there's anything that can reasonably be done about it. You'd have to have something like federally mandated participation / continued participation. That's also very unlikely to pass ethics boards. BTW, it would also be an issue if the subjects were compensated to the point that they diff…

15 -years- is a LONG time for a study. I'm not sure about the dropout rates, but it is a real statistical issue. I'm just not sure there's anything that can reasonably be done about it.

Everyone keeps replying as if my comments imply a demand that "something be done about this". That's not my point. Maybe nothing can be done about it. The situation is still significant or at least appears significant.

Re: Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

#55
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a cohort study conducted over 15 years. You can't really criticize it only based on those numbers, at least not without looking at similar numbers from other cohort studies with the same length. I tend to ascribe some value to "It was published in the peer-reviewed British Medical Journal." Additional thought: Especially because it is essentially supporting the null hypothesis.

You can't really criticize it only based on those numbers, at least not without looking at similar numbers from other cohort studies with the same length. Well, one can't criticize the quality of the study without looking how well other studies did. But even if all studies involve a massive drop-out rate, the drop-out rate still seems like something to look at in evaluating the accuracy of the study. I mean my concer…

> "it is good enough that I can rely on it?"

It's called longitudinal analysis or survival analysis, depending on the question being asked.

We statistician got test and models for these.

You can rely on it if the people who are conducting the experiment are competent and know what they're doing.

Re: Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

#56
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My armchair analysis suspects that it is chemicals like cortisol will degrade the brain over time, while dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin will help preserve it. So stress and anxiety bad, exercise good.

Completely off topic, but I appreciate you properly citing your source. I hate when people make absolute claims off no factual evidence. Even just "I heard ______ " is a perfectly acceptable comment imo.

I am presuming that you are not being sarcastic. I am being totally transparent that this is nothing more than an internal hunch based on some very amateur time investment is hardly related fields. Literally nothing worth taking note of except to spur conversation from somebody who may know more. That said, boldy professing incorrectly seems to spur more good debate on the Internet than boldy professing my claim is not backed by anything.

Re: Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

#57
post #4

This is a fascinating share, if not for the results—"None of the measures of intellectual engagement was linked to the speed of decline of people's mental abilities over time"—but for the study itself. "Many people also dropped out of the study. Only 96 of the 498 people recruited took part in the last round of testing. The researchers lost touch with 13 people, while 57 people died and 332 declined to take part." Do…

>The researchers lost touch with 13 people, while 57 people died and 332 declined to take part." This is one of the major downsides to longitudinal studies— people are unpredictable.

I wonder if we'll see that change with the proliferation of communication across so many mediums. Between mail, email, texting, voice, social media, etc. staying in touch with a cohort might be much easier and more sustainable.

Re: Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

#58
post #4

This is a fascinating share, if not for the results—"None of the measures of intellectual engagement was linked to the speed of decline of people's mental abilities over time"—but for the study itself. "Many people also dropped out of the study. Only 96 of the 498 people recruited took part in the last round of testing. The researchers lost touch with 13 people, while 57 people died and 332 declined to take part." Do…

Maybe they dropped out because they were failing the tests of mental abilities, and were too frustrated and embarrassed to continue. But one would think that the authors had explored that.

Edit: Yes, they did. See ojbyrne's comment.

Re: Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

#59
post #29
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for sure.. but I expect the real results to be worse (though this is purely speculative on my part), as I can only imagine people with steeper intellectual decline being more likely to drop out

Its mentioned in the paper: "However, recruitment to and retention in cognitive ageing studies is also affected by self selection to volunteer among better educated individuals who are ageing well, which is also true of our study. Thus, the findings might be biased towards those individuals with higher cognitive performance."

Thanks for finding that. I was about to read the paper, looking for something like that.

Re: Puzzle-solving 'doesn't slow down mental decline in older people'

#60
Chess seems to show the opposite. In particular speak with literally just about any older grandmaster and you'll invariably find their mental faculties are still in great shape. Of course there's always a correlation != causation problem that plagues all sort of social studies. This observation does not necessarily mean that becoming a grandmaster would slow mental decline. It could simply be something within the individuals that drives them to become grandmasters that itself is what staves off the decline.

Ultimately I'm not entirely sure what the point of science along these lines even is. The big risk is you notice a correlation to something and assume causation. You then start working to try to pursue that end in cases where the correlation is good - or avoid that end in cases where the correlation is bad. And you spend immense energy and resources doing this, only to find that in the end there was no actual causation at all and you just spent immense amounts of time, energy, and resources doing nothing.

Even worse is that sometimes you might pursue the correlation and falsely end up at the desired end thus assuming causality when none exists. Maybe the best example of this is human/animal sacrifice of ancient civilizations. Those sacrifices were not baseless from their perspective. What undoubtedly happened is that at one point a civilization has e.g. a bad harvest. They feel they must have wronged the gods, so they end up sacrificing something. And, completely by coincidence, the next harvest is bountiful. Lo and behold, you now have centuries of human and animal sacrifice in a model where you can ignore any negative outcomes by suggesting it simply means that you didn't sacrifice enough. Keep ramping up the sacrifices and indeed eventually you'll get a good harvest, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the sacrifices you've made.

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