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An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

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Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#111
While her situation is tragic,

She's demonstrating a huge amount of entitlement and technically illiteracy. She's making assumptions that all of these studies from data science and usage of recommendation/personalization systems are for her benefit. They're not, she's not paying the bills on that. That's for someone to sell her something. She's entitled because she believes that her unusual/rare situation should be accounted for and encoded in their global system.

Ok, I think I probably burned off a bit too much of the hn points there.. Now to get on my soapbox.

Reporters like this are exactly why no one understands or cares about privacy. If we're to have an honest disussion about this, the crux of the issue is: Should we have control over the data and interactions we perform. (the US doesn't have a GDPR)

The other thing that should be pointed out heavily: Most of the tech industry, in the last 10 years, has been solely focused on targeting the majority of people in profit grabs. This is an example of such of a focus.

Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#112
post #21

This seems to happen a lot when one's experience is statistically unlikely, or when it doesn't neatly mesh with a commercial opportunity. For instance, I am a transgender woman and I get THE WEIRDEST ads. Makes sense, since an algorithm meshing together my engagement histories from ten years of social platforms must see something quite strange. The only appropriately targeted advertisements I get are from academics i…

You know non-transgender people also get unsuitable ads, right? It's not a "rejection" of your reality. AI and ad logic simply isn't very good, and apparently business sense isn't either. Maybe if there were products targeted at transgender people, somebody could make a killing with them.

Where did she say that her suboptimal experience was exclusive to her?

Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#113

I'm someone saddened that the discussion here focuses only on what the advertiser (/ tech companies) should have done and leaves out the aspect of how we have failed to bring the obvious solution to the harmed individual: Install an adblocker at the first sign of trouble. How come she was so morally obliged to watch any ads in the first place instead of engaging in basic self defense? Or if the answer is technologica…

She isn’t obligated to do so, because no one is obligated to use these platforms. They are entirely optional to life and purely a luxury item.

It’s a suffering person, yes, but would I rather have Instagram that you can opt in to and receive targeted ads in exchange for its feature set than no Instagram? Yes. And I believe if we allowed people to make the free choice, they would too.

This is about the equivalent of going to a high school reunion and having people talk about their kids soon after you had a miscarriage. It’s horrible to have that happen but it’s an honest mistake.

Jumping on the “targeted advertising is evil” wagon just means we fail to solve it another more-likely way: like how you’d imply to your old classmates in that situation that you find it painful to hear about the topic right then.

Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#114
post #73

I feel like I’m alone in asking this but does personal responsibility play no part in this? She starts by admitting that she voluntarily signaled to these platforms that she was pregnant. They are ad platforms. She then goes on to admit that she continued to go back on the platforms after and then blames them for showing ads she herself engaged with at one point! I don’t think anyone would ever wish someone grieving…

You aren't alone. I had the same thoughts. Why would she share that type of information on a social networking site to begin with?

It's terrible what happened to her and her family, but this post basically reads "I put my foot in a fire. Fire, why did you burn my foot?"

Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#115
post #111

While her situation is tragic, She's demonstrating a huge amount of entitlement and technically illiteracy. She's making assumptions that all of these studies from data science and usage of recommendation/personalization systems are for her benefit. They're not, she's not paying the bills on that. That's for someone to sell her something. She's entitled because she believes that her unusual/rare situation should be a…

Not everyone is as enlightened about data science as you seem to be. If you actually want GDPR-like reform in the U.S., then part of the discussion involves people pointing out the absurdities and injustice in how data science is currently implemented.

Imagine your line of condescending argument being applied to someone complaining about being wrongly convicted and incarcerated, and who is calling for criminal justice reform. "You're entitled because you believe that your unusual/rare situation should be accounted for and encoded in the overall justice system"

edit: and the author even points out how she has done the manual work to give feedback to the algorithm:

> And when we millions of brokenhearted people helpfully click “I don’t want to see this ad,” and even answer your “Why?” with the cruel-but-true “It’s not relevant to me,” do you know what your algorithm decides, Tech Companies? It decides you’ve given birth, assumes a happy result, and deluges you with ads for the best nursing bras...

You read this, and yet still saw fit to berate the author for being "entitled". And then, one sentence later, go on to proclaim about how the "crux of the issue is: should we have control over the data and interactions we perform"? How does that work exactly?

Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#116

I'm someone saddened that the discussion here focuses only on what the advertiser (/ tech companies) should have done and leaves out the aspect of how we have failed to bring the obvious solution to the harmed individual: Install an adblocker at the first sign of trouble. How come she was so morally obliged to watch any ads in the first place instead of engaging in basic self defense? Or if the answer is technologica…

> Or if the answer is technological: How come we accept the tyranny of advertisers on our most personal devices?

On the side of the user: because we don't like paying for services with money.

On the side of the company: hockey stick growth gets big pay outs, growth can happen much quicker if you give a service away and pay with advertiser.

Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#117
post #66
post #21

This seems to happen a lot when one's experience is statistically unlikely, or when it doesn't neatly mesh with a commercial opportunity. For instance, I am a transgender woman and I get THE WEIRDEST ads. Makes sense, since an algorithm meshing together my engagement histories from ten years of social platforms must see something quite strange. The only appropriately targeted advertisements I get are from academics i…

I am coming to the conclusion that the only way to beat the system is to not play in the system. Or play as little as possible. I no longer go on FB, Instagram or Amazon. I do my best to just be anonymous. I don't "need" to hang out on social media. I lived quite happily before these services even existed, and will continue without them. We have control. We can resist their shiny toys. If we are waiting for THEM (or…

I think you're taking Joshua's quote out of context: The WOPR learns about futility in game theory, not anonymity through exclusion.

Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#118
I felt immense pity for the mother in this scenario, and after reading the article I agreed that FB aught to have some sort of way to indicate that such advertisements are offensive and should not be shown to the user. Ideally, I'd like to see a paid tier that gets rid of advertising altogether.

Then I read some of the comments here and on other sites. To put it bluntly, I don't understand the tone of entitlement people have when they demand FB/Twitter/etc fix their individual problems. I mean, I obviously understand it - such services are very popular and play a big part of peoples' social circles and lives. What I don't understand is why they think they have a right to demand that a platform they aren't even paying for should cater to them.

If everyone who disagreed with Facebook's revenue model were to leave Facebook, another platform would inevitably pop up that would cater to that new market niche. This seems to be the most fair solution to all parties, but instead it seems like people demand that someone compel FB to change based on their wants. I disagree with this not onlt because it's immoral and unfair, but also because it just means that those future FB competitors will have all sorts of obscure and unique regulatory hoops to jump through.

Am I the only one who thinks this way?

Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#119
post #111

While her situation is tragic, She's demonstrating a huge amount of entitlement and technically illiteracy. She's making assumptions that all of these studies from data science and usage of recommendation/personalization systems are for her benefit. They're not, she's not paying the bills on that. That's for someone to sell her something. She's entitled because she believes that her unusual/rare situation should be a…

1) Her situation isn't rare/unusual. Miscarriages happen all the time.

2) >She's making assumptions that all of these studies from data science and usage of recommendation/personalization systems are for her benefit. They're not, she's not paying the bills on that. That's for someone to sell her something.

Advertising (at its best) is for the consumer's benefit. A consumer needs to make informed decisions about their purchases, and they need information disseminated to them to make those decisions. That information being released is advertising.

As a human being, she is entitled to make the case that those who create and control the information dissemination systems don't cause literal terror.

Re: An open letter to FB, Twitter, Instagram regarding algorithms and my son's birth

#120
post #21

This seems to happen a lot when one's experience is statistically unlikely, or when it doesn't neatly mesh with a commercial opportunity. For instance, I am a transgender woman and I get THE WEIRDEST ads. Makes sense, since an algorithm meshing together my engagement histories from ten years of social platforms must see something quite strange. The only appropriately targeted advertisements I get are from academics i…

Can confirm. I actually went and specifically informed a couple of ad-targeting networks that I'm a woman, in the cases where they allow that, around when I was updating many other people and institutions. That helped on some fronts.

So now some of the ad targeting networks have me targeted as "woman who's a successful professional and knows what she's doing in life", which, uh, is correct up until that last part.

The robots are just not expecting a woman in her thirties to still be baffled and overwhelmed by fashion and looking for the basics. I get my most useful recommendations by word of mouth, and yay, that sounds very nice and authentic, but it's a slow process.

So this is a different problem than the original article: we could be targeted _better_ and both we and the advertisers would be happy, for at least a moment.

But. We're trusting the advertisers to use that information responsibly. What if the kind of people who make those anti-trans reply videos on YouTube start taking out deliberately divisive ads, targeted at the trans community? On balance, I think it might be better for the ad networks to not quite understand.

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