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Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#151

Post by dijit »

mscasts wrote: post #2

That is really something, before as a dev coming from linux when I first was about to login on a Windows Server I didn't understand how to do it since it were no SSH. Administrating the server via a GUI always felt backwards somehow. Why waste CPU cycles on rendering a UI when the CLI is so great (on linux)?

So, I am not a big fan of windows- so do not take this for defence of windows.

But my understanding is that windows fleets are just administered drastically differently than Linux fleets.

On Linux we have a lot of config management tools and commandline remote administration kits.

In windows they have SCCM and remote access GUIs which do not get rendered on the target server. It’s very common to see a GUI program which does something pretty basic but over 500+ windows machines in windows heavy shops. In fact when I explained that I do all my scripting with a local target (because I use salt stack which is essentially a remote execution framework before it is a config management system) I was told in no uncertain terms that I was doing things the “old way”.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#152

Post by shaklee3 »

adventured wrote: post #121
emit_time wrote: post #84

As someone who just started working as a developer and is using windows for the first time in 4.5 years, I can't believe how much I miss ssh and command line tools for everything... ssh keys would solve so much trouble with scripting and credentials... Also sudo...

As a developer do you have to use the Windows GUI or can you use eg the Ubuntu Windows Subsystem for Linux? I highly recommend it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Subsystem_for_Linux

Seconded. WSL on Windows 10 has a basic ubuntu CLI install that you can run any CLI program on it works great.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#153

Post by jdub »

craftyguy wrote: post #82
jdub wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WSL is an implementation of the Linux kernel ABI on top of the NT kernel. Typical Linux user space does depend on the kernel ABI – most significantly via glibc, systemd and friends, but also to various degrees up through the stack.

> Typical Linux user space does depend on the kernel ABI Not really. There are some exceptions (systemd), but there are libc implementations for other kernels, and the GNU userland definitely runs on other kernels without a hard dependency on any Linux kernel ABI.

At a macro level, there are plenty of syscalls not wrapped by glibc that are used regularly in userspace. Then there's the micro level assumptions of behaviour. Look at the list of "doesn't work on WSL" software and all the bug fixes to get boring, every day stuff to run on it (or LX zones, or BSD personalities, or…)

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#154

Post by cpach »

godzilla82 wrote: post #149
jimmaswell wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For just one thing, I find it a lot nicer being able to edit config files in Notepad++ or something instead of vim or nano. In my case I mount the remote Linux server as a drive on Windows.

Mounting requires other ports to be opened, which no sysadmin will do on the internet. Ssh on the other hand can be started on a non standard port.

IME most Windows servers are not directly exposed to the Internet, instead one would reach them via VPN.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#155

Post by brazzledazzle »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #99
tom_ wrote: post #98

Always a bit of a mystery to me that POSIX users couldn't figure out Windows until they added a bunch of Unix stuff to it. Here was me thinking that Unix fans were the clever ones, able to learn whatever they put their mind to, unlike the shit-flinging Windows monkeys, able to acquire new skills only through heroic amounts of rote memorization.

This type of attitude isn't particularly helpful. And in any case: it's easy enough to learn Windows, but it gets a lot better when you put decent command-line tools on it. (Yes, I already know about PowerShell and don't need twelve replies advocating it as a revolutionary concept.)

This type of attitude isn’t terribly helpful either. Sorry if that came off as snarky but this one is near and dear to my heart.

The reason you get twelve replies is because PowerShell is the answer to wanting a good shell and decent command line tools. Not perfect but it runs circles around typical ‘nix shells.

It would be a bit like having a decent Ruby or Python-based shell on Linux and bemoaning the lack of a Windows cmd port.

That said there’s a great case to be made for familiarity and experience and any bourne-like is going to do just fine without PowerShell’s bells and whistles. Powershell is also far from perfect and has warts and limitations like anything else.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#156

Post by jackfraser »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #106
scarface74 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been developing on and for Windows for 20 years and just started doing anything with Linux earlier this year. If you told me I had to do anything advanced with Windows using only a CLI, I wouldn’t know where to start. On the other hand, I could maneuver my way around a bash shell. I haven’t thought about that before now.....

I think it's time for MS to develop a new ANSI/VT-compliant, text-oriented shell (to complement PowerShell, which is largely object- and API-oriented). There ought to be a default shell worth using on the other end when you ssh into a Windows server :) cmd.exe and DOS were both text-oriented but extremely buggy and inconsistent. Perhaps MS could just focus on providing a very bash-like language (perhaps even include…

Why would they do that when Powershell is literally that, but refined beyond what's commonly available on Linux?

I'm not great with it yet, but it feels intuitively like a step forward to be able to pass objects around instead of spending so much of my time using awk-ward 40 year old tools to tease text out of various fields.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#157

Post by amazingman »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #136
mscasts wrote: post #2

That is really something, before as a dev coming from linux when I first was about to login on a Windows Server I didn't understand how to do it since it were no SSH. Administrating the server via a GUI always felt backwards somehow. Why waste CPU cycles on rendering a UI when the CLI is so great (on linux)?

Microsoft's GUI management tools were really good and generally very discoverable. IMO they were a much better way to manage an OS than cryptically named CLI programs and text files. And most of them worked remotely. And by comparison to modern software they can not even remotely be considered bloated. Every electron application ever made is larger than all of RSAT. Now of course they suck ass because MS has no idea…

Those cryptically named programs are scriptable, and those text files (including scripts) are easy to version and backup.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#158

Post by copperx »

tmh88j wrote: post #150
axaxs wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if a joke, but I'd absolutely love this. I, as a consumer, would gladly pay good money to be able to use Outlook and the MS Office suite. Regardless of what anyone claims, the linux alternatives are useable but not nearly as good. I used to use Windows with Cygwin, but found I spent way more time doing linux-y things than Windows-y things...so switched away.

Why not Mac? Best of both worlds.

I would have said the same thing a year ago. Today not so much because Apple hardware prices have skyrocketed. It used to be that a Mac cost 2x the PC equivalent, but now the cost is reaching 3x. For many, especially considering engineering salaries, that's justified. To me, having the familiar GNU toolchain and Linux configuration available at any moment without having to use a VM or Homebrew is worth the downgrade in eye candy.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#159

Post by voltagex_ »

dijit wrote: post #151
mscasts wrote: post #2

That is really something, before as a dev coming from linux when I first was about to login on a Windows Server I didn't understand how to do it since it were no SSH. Administrating the server via a GUI always felt backwards somehow. Why waste CPU cycles on rendering a UI when the CLI is so great (on linux)?

So, I am not a big fan of windows- so do not take this for defence of windows. But my understanding is that windows fleets are just administered drastically differently than Linux fleets. On Linux we have a lot of config management tools and commandline remote administration kits. In windows they have SCCM and remote access GUIs which do not get rendered on the target server. It’s very common to see a GUI program whi…

This is changing:

* Desired State Configuration: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/dsc/overview

* Powershell Remoting (please, please let SSH replace this)

* Microsoft's new command line push - cmd and the underlying console have had big updates recently

* https://github.com/microsoft/console

* https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/07/20/wind...

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#160

Post by bayindirh »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #136
mscasts wrote: post #2

That is really something, before as a dev coming from linux when I first was about to login on a Windows Server I didn't understand how to do it since it were no SSH. Administrating the server via a GUI always felt backwards somehow. Why waste CPU cycles on rendering a UI when the CLI is so great (on linux)?

Microsoft's GUI management tools were really good and generally very discoverable. IMO they were a much better way to manage an OS than cryptically named CLI programs and text files. And most of them worked remotely. And by comparison to modern software they can not even remotely be considered bloated. Every electron application ever made is larger than all of RSAT. Now of course they suck ass because MS has no idea…

It's almost 2019. Are we still fighting over this? OTOH, purely from my experience, MS's tools are good for managing a domain, or some computers.

When you start to administer hundreds or thousands of servers, scriptability of CLI tools and pliability of text files trumps all computer automation.

xCAT and Salt are two tools (that I use regularly) which are built on these properties and can manage thousands of servers with a "flick of a finger".

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