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Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

reuters.com

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Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't thought about it much, but its instinctively obvious that the 2-pins of a decoupling capacitor is insufficient to do any kind of hacking. Your instincts seem to have deceived you. There's a top-level comment with a variety of replies that discusses a 2-pin device to snoop or modify data to an I2C device, and plenty of other literature documenting the feasibility of such devices.

The distinction there is the type of device. Caps are not used on data lines. The parent comment is talking particularly about how the Bloomberg article kept referencing the attack vector as a disguised cap. The comment that you are referring to used a 2-pin device in place of the pull-up resistor on the SDA line of an I2C bus. That does seem fascinating and I would like to read more about it but I still have a lot o…

Caps can be used on data lines to filter out high frequency noise, as it forms an RC lowpass filter with the source impedence (see here for an example: https://jretest.com/understanding-data-signals/ ), although I do not know enough about motherboard design to know whether these caps are needed on any of the data lines.

Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#322
post #28

Let's say Super Micro is right and there were no malicious hardware at all for sure. What are the consequences for Bloomberg for this incompetence? I mean, there needs to be something.. Just because you're a news organization, you can't simply escape with "Oh, my bad". This had real implications on stock prices of so many companies and wiped off shareholder value on many of them, including Super Micro. If Bloomberg's…

I personally think the reward system related current human evolution punishes blunt liars, but reward "Lie Lie" teller.

A "Lie" is something that is easy to falsify with consensus.

A "Lie Lie" is not a lie but a statement intend to mislead people, difficult to get caught, easy to find a lot of lie believer to defend, eventually make a technical evidence based debate into a religious belief based debate. It's a lie about lie or a decoration upon a "lie" so the "lie" can not be categorized as a lie.

There are signatures of "Lie Lie":

* Claim there's a proof instead of provide the proof. actually any claimed proof often is not a proof but just claimers' belief.

* The claims are mixed topics some legitimate and defendable possibility along with some thing that really happened. In simple words mix truth with lie so later the can defend truth topics.

* When they give proof, they will provide the one that there are less controversial topics but not the needed ones.

* Shift the focus to defendable topics so the undefendable part(i.e. belief based part)

* Usually attached with moral high grounded good cause such as "raised the public awareness of threat from an oppressive regime" just as an example, so the "Lie Lie" teller can convince themselves and their friends, coworkers the claimers are decent people.

*The claimers themselves believe the claims so they can claim they are not lying but they don't think they are using deceptive narratives to sell their beliefs.

Most activists are "Lie Lie" tellers. The problem of our society is a lot of journalists become activists involved into ideological fight but pretend they are providing truth.

Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#323
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A nation state adversary could trivially miniaturize this to the size and form of an SMT resistor, and use a much more capable uC in the process. And sandwich it between the PCB layers. No way to find even upon close up inspection without Xraying the board itself, and even interpreting the Xray image of modern multilayer board would be a nontrivial task. I dont think Supermicro did it, at least for statistically mea…

I don’t think they have to use xrays. I heard that they spin the boards and measure the angular momentum with very sensitive equipment. I don’t know how you could get around that.

Spinning the boards is of limited use. The attacker now has a specific target to aim for.

It might be useful if nobody knows your doing it, but other than that it’s mostly pointless especially if you compromise every sample.

Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#324
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presuming it was him, the story would go like "I'll create a blatantly forged document that confirms a narrative that CBS wants to push and send it to them. I expect they will publish it immediately with no fact checking whatsoever, double down when called out on it, and the entire rest of the mainstream media will stick behind them." Now if that's the story... I'm not saying Karl Rove is an angel or anything, but th…

The genius of what I'm accusing him of is this: the story itself was real (Bush going AWOL; taking advantage of his father's position). Why not make a document that ostensibly validates that and bake in the fact that it was a forgery to be revealed so that all focus is on the forgery and not the facts that Bush shirked his service? It's a brilliantly devious move and exactly the type of thing Rove would do (e.g., bug…

I see what you mean better now. It still strikes me as rather odd though. The AWOL story never got all that much traction in the first place. Why undertake a high-risk plan to kill a relatively minor story? Theoretically, CBS could have identified the forgery, realized someone was trying to pull a dirty trick on them, investigated the source much more closely, and went live with details of that instead of taking it at face value. Unless of course he was so confident that CBS is completely incompetent and will do absolutely anything to push their chosen narrative that he thought there really wasn't any risk at all. If he did do it and thought that, he ended up being far more right than anyone could have imagined.

I distinctly remember the overall landscape of the time being that the mainstream media was constantly poo-pooing bloggers and internet sources for not having the "journalistic standards" of themselves. It's quite an attention-getter to prove by their own actions that their only real journalistic standard is keeping their positions of power and promoting a preselected narrative.

In the context of all that, it seems a little weak to whine that they were set up by a Republican dirty trickster. They had just spent the last few years claiming that they were the only news source that could be trusted because they were the only ones competent enough to properly fact-check sources exactly like that.

Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#325

From a technical perspective I found this story compelling, so I tried out a simple hack to see if it were "possible". Using an attiny85 uC, a couple resistors, a cap, and a couple diodes I had laying around, I was able to wire up a two terminal "device" that pretty much acts like a 5k pull up resistor on a I2C line.... But when you pass data through the signal line (SDA) wire it can read and modify it. It is crude a…

The argument that Bloomberg's claim doesn't pass the smell test never originated from the fact that aftermarket out of band management controllers aren't possible, but that it's extremely unlikely that no one ever noticed at any stage. Some hack targets multiple megacorporations that also lead the technical revolution and all those companies go out of their way to explicitly deny anything ever happened? Undetected ar…

It’s not that no one ever noticed. It’s that the folks who thought somebody did notice didn’t have any idea what they were talking about.

Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#326
post #28

Let's say Super Micro is right and there were no malicious hardware at all for sure. What are the consequences for Bloomberg for this incompetence? I mean, there needs to be something.. Just because you're a news organization, you can't simply escape with "Oh, my bad". This had real implications on stock prices of so many companies and wiped off shareholder value on many of them, including Super Micro. If Bloomberg's…

Nothing, just like nothing will happen to the outlets who are currently pushing this "Huwai is spying on everybody" narrative with not an ounce of evidence for it except for unfounded and unsourced claims by FiveEyes intelligence services [0]. Afaik that whole Bloomberg/Super Micro thing was similarly set up, referring to "anonymous intelligence/industry services", not even naming the company that supposedly did the…

Those are very different cases. Also, public citations of classified intel is a dumb thing to require. I hope the reason why is obvious.

In the SuperMicro example, the same shadowy government organizations you accuse of conspiring to build a narrative against China are some of the people who debunked this story.

Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much more than that. They have destructed 100's of billions of dollars of capital.

supermicro was not worth that much.

They have dragged Apple into it, and with Apple, the entire NASDAQ.

So, yes, they have destroyed 100s of billions.

Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#328
post #288
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very interesting. Can you be a bit more specific about the design? When you say you created a two terminal device; do you mean you have a PCB (or equivalent) with two IO pads which you soldered to the pads which would normally be occupied by I2C pull-up R, but on a different PCB. Basically, I'm wondering how the attiny85 was powered. Given your description, I'm guessing you made a local power well which float…

« Basically, I'm wondering how the attiny85 was powered » You guys are overthinking this. Server motherboard PCBs are usually 4-8 layers with GND and VCC planes available near any component. The hackers, according to Bloomberg, modified the motherboards, so presumably they would simply add vias to the GND and VCC planes to power their rogue chip. You don't gain much by going the trouble of making the chip self-powere…

The assembler still has to put a special SKU 5k resistor (with our BMC modifying framework burnt in to it) on the modified PCB without anyone noticing though. I don't follow your conclusion that only the PCBs would have to be swapped.

Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#329
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that Huawei is the only and surely some other brands are even worse, but still Huawei phones are full of spyware, just open NetGuard or another example here : https://mobile.twitter.com/fs0c131y/status/10515681807480135... But once again surely other brands, Western companies included, are also spying, but it doesn't change the fact that Huawei does it too.

I see people say this a lot, but I'm using an Honor 10 and have spent a bit of time this week alternately MITM proxying connections from the phone and capturing DNS at the router. I found very infrequent calls to HiCloud (Huawei's cloud service), almost always using a HiCloud enabled app where it would make perfect sense to communicate with the service. On the other hand, I seen third party apps (none of which were p…

As far as I can tell, the concern with Huawei is not that their phones have some kind of obvious backdoor, but that the Chinese government has Huawei's private keys and can load arbitrary software on their phones, something the Chinese government uses sparingly to attack targets they don't like. And not just phones, their switches, routers, base stations, and other gear - in that case used to eavesdrop on cellular voice traffic around the world.

Even if Huawei didn't do this willingly the Chinese government doesn't operate by open rule of law. If the Party decides they will comply then they will comply. No news outlet will report on it. Social media will be censored. None of us in the west will ever know. There is no court to appeal to because the courts are under the thumb of the Party. Huawei is required to hire Party members as employees - Huawei leadership might not even be aware of it for plausible deniability reasons.

This is the direct result of the State apparatus that the Party in China has built for itself. They can cry all the rivers they want about Huawei; it's their own fault. Even if nothing nefarious is going on the suspicion alone has a huge impact.

To address the whataboutism: The whole issue around NSA revelations is entirely because that sort of thing isn't supposed to be possible in the USA (and nominally wrt NSA is only supposed to be valid when it involves foreign individuals). Individuals and companies regularly challenge government over-reach so there are at least some checks and balances, even if they aren't as strong as we'd like. Apple can choose to fight a court order. Trump's executive orders can be blocked.

Now imagine a new story claiming someone sued to block Xi Jinping's executive order in China. Such a scenario is absolutely laughable.

There is a difference between China and the West. To pretend they're the same is to pretend a bicycle is identical to a semi. They're both methods of transportation with wheels that carry cargo but there is a wide gulf in practice.

edit: As for the Supermicro story, who knows. The attack is certainly theoretically possible. Whether such an attack took place is another matter and so far no one has provided a tampered board as evidence.

The only way to be reasonably sure it isn't happening is to sample the final product, tearing down every individual component to verify everything (down to the traces on boards and gates on chips). That's a lot of work, expensive, and time-consuming. Most manufacturers probably don't bother. That applies regardless of where the product is assembled unless your own factories are producing every single component.

Re: Super Micro says review found no malicious chips in motherboards

#330
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The media falls for bullshit all the time, Weapons of mass destruction, incubator babies in Kuwait, etc. They are in the business of making money and not getting the story right and since there is hardley any consequences for them why would they care? Bloomberg here will blame its source and take no responsibility.

> They are in the business of making money and not getting the story right All business are "in the business of making money", that's what being a business is. What sets them apart is how they make it. In the case of media companies is, precisely, by getting the story right. A publisher that doesn't is more likely to lose influence and readership as time goes by. For a publication like Bloomberg, more so. So yeah, th…

"In the case of media companies is, precisely, by getting the story right."

Almost any article about Russia is a counter example to this.

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