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Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

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Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#41

"When a HD died early, you could also imagine undetected manufacturing flaws that finally gave way. With SSDs, at least in theory that shouldn't happen" Why shouldn't it? Isn't it just hardware too? "With spinning HDs, drives might die abruptly but you could at least construct narratives about what could have happened to do that" Why can't you do the same with SSDs? It feels like the author's main complaint is the fr…

"It feels like the author's main complaint is the frustration of not understanding SSD hardware as well."

What is so frustrating about SSDs is how very poorly they compare to previous incarnations of solid state storage.

Using Disk-On-Chip and/or IDE-pin-compatible CF cards, I had many, many devices in the field that lasted, mounted read-only, for decades An entire sect of the computing industry came to rely on these parts as alternatives to spinning media that could not mechanically fail.

This is not the case with SSDs at all. They fail left and right, even mounted read-only, for all manner of complicated and interesting reasons. It's very frustrating that SSDs are not a step forward in reliability from spinning media and are a step downward compared to (for instance) a 16MB consumer CF card from Sandisk, circa 2000.

rsync.net filers, which need a boot mirror, are always constructed with two unrelated SSDs - usually one Intel part and one Samsung part - so that when the inevitable usage-related failure occurs, it does not occur simultaneously to both members of the mirror which have, being a mirror, been subjected to identical usage-lives.[1]

We shouldn't have to do that.

[1] I can't overstate this - if you need a RAID mirror, do not use identical SSDs for the two members of the mirror. There are many, many cases of SSDs failing not due to "wear" or end-of-life, but due to weird usage edge cases that cause them to puke ... and in a mirror, you give the two parts identical usage ... we either get two different generations of Intel part (current gen and just-previous gen) or we get current Intel and current Samsung ...

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#42
I actually much prefer this SSD failure mode: Unlike failing spinning rust which will happily linger around coughing up bad data (which will then be written to backups, mirrored drives, etc. potentially creating a huge mess) an SSD going out like a light is comfortingly binary.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#43
post #21

Not that spinning HDDs are really any different, but SSDs are a perfect example of an entire computer that you attach to yours, and speak with through one of the (many) storage-oriented protocols. The device itself is a black box, and complex transformations take place between the physical persistence of the data and the logical structures that are exchanged on the wire. There are many layers of indirection, and many…

> skates of magnetic readers flying on a cushion of air above a rapidly rotating disc, with the gap separating a few dozen nanometers, often smaller than the process size in the controller's silicon.

Complete aside, the fly-height of a magnetic head is actually fractions of a nanometer (i.e. hundreds of picometers).

EDIT: I got this from a talk by Bryan Cantrill[1]. The fly-height is allegedly 0.8 nanometers (800 picometers).

[1]: https://youtu.be/fE2KDzZaxvE?t=1551

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#44

A major problem with SSDs seems to be “firmware death” - where the flash chips are physically fine (or mostly fine), but the firmware (or firmware memory) has gotten corrupted due to some programming error, electrical glitch, or cosmic ray. I’ve had scores of older SSDs die after things like power outages and sudden shutdown events. This is super frustrating because the data is physically OK but the controller just i…

Does this explain why I often can access my 'dead' SSDs with my Ubuntu install rather than Windows?

I havent run into this issue for ~4 years, so I'm not sure if this is a solved problem or I got lucky a few years back.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#45
For my home setup, at least, it's simple: Put the OS on a dirt cheap 120GB SSD, and all the user data on a multi-terabyte hard disk. You can always selectively migrate other performance critical, but can afford to lose, stuff onto the SSD later. If it breaks, I just buy another one and reinstall the OS. On laptops that can only take one drive, the SSD is it, but so is awareness that the data on them has to be considered ephemeral. I've had assorted hard disks die over the years, from old age, and so far without exception they've been "mostly" recoverable - might have to give up on a few files that got hit by bad sectors, that sort of thing. And have been warned about impending failure by SMART diagnostics.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#46

For my home setup, at least, it's simple: Put the OS on a dirt cheap 120GB SSD, and all the user data on a multi-terabyte hard disk. You can always selectively migrate other performance critical, but can afford to lose, stuff onto the SSD later. If it breaks, I just buy another one and reinstall the OS. On laptops that can only take one drive, the SSD is it, but so is awareness that the data on them has to be conside…

Quick to add that I also have a backup strategy! Still, a catastrophic failure of a storage device is very inconvenient.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#47

"When a HD died early, you could also imagine undetected manufacturing flaws that finally gave way. With SSDs, at least in theory that shouldn't happen" Why shouldn't it? Isn't it just hardware too? "With spinning HDs, drives might die abruptly but you could at least construct narratives about what could have happened to do that" Why can't you do the same with SSDs? It feels like the author's main complaint is the fr…

Why shouldn't it? Isn't it just hardware too?

In a mechanical hard drive, there are moving parts which can wear out due to friction, etc.

SSDs are solid-state, so it seems like at least theoretically, it should be possible to build one that keeps working for decades. e.g. I have solid-state hardware from the 70s and 80s which still functions.

I've always been a little mystified as to why SSDs' data areas wear out for that reason,[1] but that's a whole separate issue. The author of the article is writing about sudden failure of the device as a whole.

There are only two explanations I've ever heard for short lifetimes in electronics as a general industry.[2]

For devices manufactured after about 2000 there's tin whiskers,[3] which began to be a problem because of RoHS requirements. I'm not sure if that applies here, though.

If the device includes electrolytic capacitors, my understanding is that those generally have a finite lifetime as well, and it can be fairly short if they're poorly-made.

I'm not a hardware expert, though, so I'd be interested in hearing about other factors, and I'm sure the author of the article would too.

[1] I've seen lots of writeups of how wear-leveling works, etc., but never a good physical explanation of what is actually wearing out over time.

[2] Obviously there are other factors for specific devices, or specific designs. E.g. maybe parts of a specific device break over time due to thermal expansion and contraction if the device wasn't engineered to handle that properly.

[3] https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/background/

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#48
post #31
post #3

I don't know why my hard drives died either. And while a physical motor breaking is more tangible, a contact wearing out is also imagineable. I don't really care why ssds or hdds die, I care that they do and therefore I have backups (well, ideally I would). I've had spinning rust fail on me while I was sitting at it and it didn't help me save it, it might as well have been dead in zero seconds.

I love that phrase, spinning rust.

I love this phrase as well, but just I found out that they are actually made using cobalt alloys on glass or aluminum platter.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#49
post #41

"When a HD died early, you could also imagine undetected manufacturing flaws that finally gave way. With SSDs, at least in theory that shouldn't happen" Why shouldn't it? Isn't it just hardware too? "With spinning HDs, drives might die abruptly but you could at least construct narratives about what could have happened to do that" Why can't you do the same with SSDs? It feels like the author's main complaint is the fr…

"It feels like the author's main complaint is the frustration of not understanding SSD hardware as well." What is so frustrating about SSDs is how very poorly they compare to previous incarnations of solid state storage. Using Disk-On-Chip and/or IDE-pin-compatible CF cards, I had many, many devices in the field that lasted, mounted read-only, for decades An entire sect of the computing industry came to rely on these…

I've heard very similar advice for non-SSD mirrors too. Use different manufacturers or, at the very least, use different batches of disks from the same manufacturer.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#50

A major problem with SSDs seems to be “firmware death” - where the flash chips are physically fine (or mostly fine), but the firmware (or firmware memory) has gotten corrupted due to some programming error, electrical glitch, or cosmic ray. I’ve had scores of older SSDs die after things like power outages and sudden shutdown events. This is super frustrating because the data is physically OK but the controller just i…

I have seen some weird issues with SSDs. I had an OCZ Vertex 2 die on me multiple times, but one thing that stood out most is that after a power cycle or complete system shutdown (note: reboots were just fine) everything I had done last time - install software, update Windows, create files - was gone. The state was reverted to before the time it booted. It was like my computer contained some kind of Reborn chip, except it was the Sandforce controller malfunctioning.
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