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Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

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21–30 of 258 posts

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#21
Not that spinning HDDs are really any different, but SSDs are a perfect example of an entire computer that you attach to yours, and speak with through one of the (many) storage-oriented protocols. The device itself is a black box, and complex transformations take place between the physical persistence of the data and the logical structures that are exchanged on the wire. There are many layers of indirection, and many things that can go wrong, from fault with the underlying physical storage, a physical fault in the controller, or a logical (software) condition in the controller that puts it in an unrecoverable state.

Spinning platter drives have parts that form a more relatable metaphor to humans' notions of wear and tear: skates of magnetic readers flying on a cushion of air above a rapidly rotating disc, with the gap separating a few dozen nanometers, often smaller than the process size in the controller's silicon. They have arms that can move the head over a particular disc radius, and a motor that spins the entire stack of platters. These mechanical components exhibit wear proportional to their use -- this makes intuitive sense, and is also recorded in the SMART attributes, so drives in old age and of many park cycles can be replaced preemptively before they catastrophically fail.

SSDs are missing many of the usual mechanisms that would contribute to physical wear leading to sudden catastrophic failure in advanced age. This means that irrespective of their failure rate vs. HDDs, a higher proportion of their catastrophic failures are the fault of the controller. This is discouraging: essentially, the "storage layer" is now quite reliable, so the fallibility of the human-programmed controller is brought into light.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#22
Maybe I am being overly simplistic, but shouldn't it not matter?

Who in the modern age doesn't back up everything all the time? Don't we all operate with the assumption these things are going to blow at any time? 90%+ of my data is on cloud storage now anyway. When a SSD goes out don't you just chunk it in the drawer of old drives that you promise to take to the disposal center this weekend (and never do) and then take a quick trip to your local computer store for a new one?

This reminds me of something an IT support staffer told me a long time ago... "The difference between a IT pro and a user is that to an IT pro hard drives are a consumable resources".

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well to be fair, there is an entire layer of abstraction at the SSD controller level that does tons of black box magic. It allows the OS to treat the SSD as another other storage device without letting the OS know what is going on. So the combination of non-moving parts (making it hard/impossible to debug via physical inspection) combined with a tons of wear leveling/misc magic can defo make it seem like SSD's are ma…

Is there a good reason why we use separate SSD controllers instead of letting the primary cpu handle it? The obvious reason is backwards compatibility, but as more of computing moves to SSDs, is this still relevant? ZFS has shown that removing layers of abstraction with regard to storage can be beneficial.

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/project-denali-to-def...

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#25

Maybe I am being overly simplistic, but shouldn't it not matter? Who in the modern age doesn't back up everything all the time? Don't we all operate with the assumption these things are going to blow at any time? 90%+ of my data is on cloud storage now anyway. When a SSD goes out don't you just chunk it in the drawer of old drives that you promise to take to the disposal center this weekend (and never do) and then ta…

Replacing an SSD is not free, and in most cases it's not easy. Maybe an IT pro can just roll down to the computer store for a new one, put it in their laptop (for free!), and throw a $100+ drive in a drawer without even thinking about warranty, but most people can't. A backup doesn't excuse excessive rates of failure and weird glitches.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#26
post #9

"When a HD died early, you could also imagine undetected manufacturing flaws that finally gave way. With SSDs, at least in theory that shouldn't happen" Why shouldn't it? Isn't it just hardware too? "With spinning HDs, drives might die abruptly but you could at least construct narratives about what could have happened to do that" Why can't you do the same with SSDs? It feels like the author's main complaint is the fr…

> Why can't you do the same with SSDs? Because they don't die incrementally. Wtih a hard disk you'll get bad sectors, growing slowly over time. Or a head crash and then it's all dead. What could cause an entire SSD to die at once? I would totally understand bad sectors, but the whole thing at once? Where it doesn't even try to read existing data?

One potential cause is poorly constructed drive firmware which fails to account for a minor failure of some kind and crashes. If that unaccounted minor failure is persistent, the firmware may crash constantly and then you'd be unable to access even theoretically good parts of the drive.

Firmware -- undebuggable, unobservable, unfixable software, jammed into your devices -- is the enemy.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well to be fair, there is an entire layer of abstraction at the SSD controller level that does tons of black box magic. It allows the OS to treat the SSD as another other storage device without letting the OS know what is going on. So the combination of non-moving parts (making it hard/impossible to debug via physical inspection) combined with a tons of wear leveling/misc magic can defo make it seem like SSD's are ma…

Is there a good reason why we use separate SSD controllers instead of letting the primary cpu handle it? The obvious reason is backwards compatibility, but as more of computing moves to SSDs, is this still relevant? ZFS has shown that removing layers of abstraction with regard to storage can be beneficial.

That adds a round of latency, and makes it pretty much impossible to boot off the drive. The blocks aren't in the same order in the Flash as they are presented by its interface, and one of the main jobs of the controller is to re-order them.

It would be an interesting product to have, a raw block API to a Flash device with all the temporary state stored on the host - but a hard one to sell, as it's not differentiated in any way.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#28
post #4

Call me crazy, but I don't think that a Crucial MX300 is the best choice for an enterprise worthy ZFS drive. I get what the author is concerned about, but I wouldn't be that surprised that a consumer level SSD failed in what sounds like a heavily used fileserver.

Crucial? I can tell you most of them got spectek's chips inside, no wonder why they fail.

I've been running Crucial SSD's for years. One of them is already around seven years old (yes, yes I do backups).

So the citation of some evidence is required to back up your claim.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#29
A major problem with SSDs seems to be “firmware death” - where the flash chips are physically fine (or mostly fine), but the firmware (or firmware memory) has gotten corrupted due to some programming error, electrical glitch, or cosmic ray. I’ve had scores of older SSDs die after things like power outages and sudden shutdown events. This is super frustrating because the data is physically OK but the controller just isn’t responding to any requests anymore.

I wonder if there’s an easy way to distinguish a controller failure from a flash failure from the behavior of the device over the last few seconds/minutes of operation. In theory a controller failure should cause a fairly abrupt loss of service, but I’m sure there are soft lockup failure modes too.

Re: Why I'm usually unnerved when modern SSDs die on us

#30
It may be irrational, but I remain very distrustful of SSDs, in part for reasons like this. I use them occasionally as temporary storage, but I don't use them for anything that would cause me a headache if the drive died without warning. So far, my observation is that their lifespan is considerably shorter than spinning platter drives, and spinning platter drives typically give plenty of warning before actually dying.

Perhaps I'll grow more comfortable after another decade or so, when there is enough real world experience to go by.

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