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After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

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Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#111
post #32
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bro culture is a deep-seated problem in tech In engineering? Could you elaborate a bit more? I've worked in SV tech for a decade and every large company was about 50% nerdy white engineers and 40% quiet Asians.

It's just lazy sexism. Some startups have a party culture and some folks conflate that with the "male problem". For my part I like to share the anecdotal evidence of a past company where our star beer-pong player was a female engineer.

It's not "lazy sexism," "bro" in "brogrammer" comes from the "bro" subculture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bro_(subculture)

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#112
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I enjoyed the article - is this too strong a look in the mirror for most folks? My ideal job now is one where I can live in the bush, have boring but steady work, and otherwise not care about programming after 5pm and feel OK with myself for it. Would love to find such a job, but sadly they don't seem to exist. It's either startups like described in the article, or major companies cheating the system and building s…

I can only speak for Germany but there are tons of such jobs here. Americans regularly mock German IT wages but I can go home around 4pm consistently without anybody looking at me weirdly. I might not have a snooker table or free soft drinks in the office but I don't need to live there because my free time is actually my free time.

In Canada now, but it isn't much better. As the article says, we get the worst of both worlds: lower wages and shitty work conditions. Seriously considering Europe in the near future. Not sure every EU country is equal on that front though, the UK (although not technically EU anymore) seems to have the same unhealthy relationship to work as North America does.

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#113
post #35

I'm surprised by the amount of salt (for lack of a better word in my vocabulary) in the comments. I've worked at a Canadian start up. It was not a unicorn, but you were expected to work long hours, be a "10xer", always be responsive, and put in hours on the weekend. Those expectations were never made explicit, but the company had a lot of churn for those who didn't "fit the culture" or acquiesce to the cult of person…

Working for a big company/megacorp without valuable good stock options/bonuses on weekends and off-hours is dumb and abusive. On the other hand these startups are voluntary organizations. You choose to work there or not. I don't see anything wrong with a company deciding on a culture/work enviornment which attracts people who are very dedicated to the company (and hope to be rewarded in the long term as such) and are…

> On the other hand these startups are voluntary organizations. You choose to work there or not.

I think this sounds good in theory and is very shaky in practice.

For example, look at indentured servitude [1], where people can sell themselves into time-limited slavery. Once common, it has been banned. You will find people suggesting we bring it back while waving the banner of "freedom".

It's especially erroneous here. This whole article is about how he thought he was getting into one thing based on the hype, but that the reality was deeply different. He talks about it as cult-like, cults being organizations that take advantage of flaws in human cognition to manipulate people.

If free choice is to mean anything, it must be a choice that was honestly informed and unmanipulated. To use it as an excuse in a situation like this is just victim-blaming.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#114
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I enjoyed the article - is this too strong a look in the mirror for most folks? My ideal job now is one where I can live in the bush, have boring but steady work, and otherwise not care about programming after 5pm and feel OK with myself for it. Would love to find such a job, but sadly they don't seem to exist. It's either startups like described in the article, or major companies cheating the system and building s…

I can only speak for Germany but there are tons of such jobs here. Americans regularly mock German IT wages but I can go home around 4pm consistently without anybody looking at me weirdly. I might not have a snooker table or free soft drinks in the office but I don't need to live there because my free time is actually my free time.

In my (startup) office people go home whenever they want. It's in Seattle but our SF office is similar. It's not impossible to find reasonable situations.

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#116
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak for Germany but there are tons of such jobs here. Americans regularly mock German IT wages but I can go home around 4pm consistently without anybody looking at me weirdly. I might not have a snooker table or free soft drinks in the office but I don't need to live there because my free time is actually my free time.

In Canada now, but it isn't much better. As the article says, we get the worst of both worlds: lower wages and shitty work conditions. Seriously considering Europe in the near future. Not sure every EU country is equal on that front though, the UK (although not technically EU anymore) seems to have the same unhealthy relationship to work as North America does.

> the UK (although not technically EU anymore) seems to have the same unhealthy relationship to work as North America does.

We're still in the EU and I've no idea why you think we are anything like the US in terms of overworking. I've never had a job that required me to work overtime really, sometimes I've stayed behind in my latest job as I got lost in the moment and lost track of time, but usually someone will ask me "Why are you still here?". My manager even told me not to work overtime, as it often hid problems more than anything else.

In fact I don't know anyone in Web Development in the UK that does work overtime. Maybe it's different in London though...

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#117
post #110
post #94

The Canadian startup scene is brutal. We have all of the downsides of valley startups with very few of the benefits. About five years ago, during my last job search, I interviewed at a well funded (Series B) AI company that was looking for a VP of Marketing. After a few months of interviews, including many early on where they had asked me for my salary expectations, they offered me a starting salary of $70,000 CAD sa…

The Toronto startup scene is exactly like this. All of the negatives and no upside. My last company didn't allow me to work in my off hours. Paid below market, needy owner wanted to be part of the developer team so he checks in untested code at 3am.. mornings were fixing those commits. It's a culture issue maybe weaker real technical visions with ownership which creates 'medium' driven culture where everyone must be…

I really feel for you here. And I think you're right that this comes from deep weakness at the top. The investors want to get in on the Silicon Valley money. The founders channel the Silicon Valley hype. But once you've started pretending you are a genius who will make billions, you can't really switch to the sort of humility that it takes to really get things done well. So the whole company turns into an extension of the sham performance of the founders.

E.g., really great people I know are constantly sweating effectiveness. They look at outcomes. They want to be sure they're having the desired impact on customers, on the company, on its people. Plenty of mediocre people focus on metrics, on following the rules, on seeking efficiency. Those aren't intrinsically bad, but can turn that way when the proximate measures don't align with outcomes. But the really scary ones I've met focus on appearance. They want butts in seats, the later the better. They create artificial deadlines and dramatic launches. They look at metrics and find ways to manipulate them with no regard for actual outcomes.

If those fools were only harming themselves, I'd be ok with it. But when they harm others, often hundreds of others over the course of their companies, it's truly enraging.

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#119

Raw and revealing. As I was reading the article, I started to wonder: is this the Holy Grail of everyone who wants to be disruptive, creative, productive, etc., when it comes to work with tech products? IMHO, independently of "the hat that one might be wearing", this "Zen of Star-ups" is too much (unnecessary). Dozens of companies forcing this way of life (snacks, beer, parties, video-games, etc.), creating a "cool w…

"honesty, cooperation, productivity, good compensations and missions" Competence is a lot more expensive than beer and pizza. And it encourages less time in the office, not more. It's easy to feel assured when everyone is at their desks (doing whatever).

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#120
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on that? I disagree completely, but my sample size is small. We have lots of people over 40 and we hire for culture too. We define it has folks who are happy, hungry, honest, and humble. If you fit those boxes, are enjoyable to work with, are customer focused, and interested in driving the product forward with colleagues, you will fit our culture. We guard that zealously. Edit: typo.

True company culture can be anything. But if someone talks too much about culture, it just makes me think about all the extra non-work parties, get together a and events you'll be expected to go to. My idea of a good company culture is a place where everyone works hard during working hours and then goes home and leaves the work at work so they can relax and spend time with friends and family.

This is absolutely right. A mature company should be hiring the best person for each role defined as the person that can do the job the best (of course price is another issue). Hiring people because of some preconceived idea of culture is usually code for agism or worse discriminations
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