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After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

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Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#91
post #70

Anyone else find it strange that this person worked in sales for one company which called itself a startup despite being nearly two decades old but keeps making these sweeping generalizations about startups and tech? > Here was the biggest surprise about working in tech: even though everyone wears their team T-shirts and hoodies, rah-rah chants at the monthly all-staff meetings and competes for the sombrero of shame…

You've worked at enough companies to make your own generalization and can say with 100% certainty that they are false. The author happens to do the opposite. Seeing as you are both talking from (your own) experience, you might both be right. There's no way for the readers to know.

No, the author is making a sweeping generalization about ALL tech startups in an article published on a news website.

The commenter on a forum is simply asserting that these facts are not true about ALL tech startups, and it's perfectly valid to discredit a generalization about ALL with one anecdote.

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#92
post #77

> A job for life also meant that your job was your life. You went into teaching or sports reporting or proctology because it was a calling—it was who you were meant to be. But it’s been a long time since anyone has been able to count on a job for life. The tech industry led the way: our shift to precarious employment was hastened by more efficient algorithms, apps and Amazon. What is the real history of employment st…

Well 2 of my grand father and my father worked in the same trade for their whole life. Their entourage mostly did. Now appart from very specific jobs like lawyers and doctors, I don't know many people around me that haven't already changed job several times. Just a data point of course.

Are they changing jobs within the same “trade” or are they really changing trades?

As someone who is looking for a career reset in the short/medium term, it appears companies/recruiters have a very narrow window for what kind of new employee they feel is acceptable.

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#93
post #80
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> classic cargo culting: instead of adopting the important parts, they adopt the visible parts. This is the most succinct description of cargo cutting I have come across. Thanks, will use it :)

I will think of this every time I see a getter/setter pair on a class. The illusion of modularity and encapsulation with net negative in code quality.

Let's not forget about one Interface for one Class, because that adds flexibility in the future :)

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#94
The Canadian startup scene is brutal. We have all of the downsides of valley startups with very few of the benefits.

About five years ago, during my last job search, I interviewed at a well funded (Series B) AI company that was looking for a VP of Marketing. After a few months of interviews, including many early on where they had asked me for my salary expectations, they offered me a starting salary of $70,000 CAD saying that they had to "save money for Engineers because AI is expensive and engineering is more important."

Another company I had worked at early in my career had two "co-CEOs" (who constantly bickered all the time in a power struggle). The claimed to have "flexible work hours" as long as you put in your regular hours and were there between the core hours of 10-3. Since it was a long drive away from me, I started doing a 7-3 shift to avoid the traffic. I noticed that the younger staff would arrive around 8:30 or 9am, but was told that they were staying until 7 or 8 at night and ordering pizza each night because nobody dared to leave before the CEOs, who were two young single guys just out of University. I felt guilted, and would end up putting in a few extra hours here and there, but, when it came time for my performance review, I was told I wasn't a "team player" because I wasn't staying to tough it out with the rest of them. The one other employee who had a family and didn't stay late said "You don't pay enough for this to be my full life" and the CEO said "well you make more than we do and look at all the time we put in" - he couldn't understand the difference in the fact that this was his company that he owned, and for others it was just a job.

I've got probably a dozen stories of Canadian startups who expect top 0.1% talent, pay below market rates, and want you constantly in the office. They try and make themselves seem great with office dogs, and catered lunches but they are classic underpaid corporate jobs, with even higher expectations.

After a few years, I could see why Canada faced such a brain drain of talent to the valley. Even the University of Waterloo, which is famous for its Engineers notes that Canada even companies in the city of Waterloo have trouble retaining their grads from going to the valley.

I started working remote and haven't looked back. But, it's a real shame because I think Canada has such potential to be a great startup market and yet the culture is way off course.

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#95
This description of a startup is exactly everything I ever think of when I hear or get offered "the next big opportunity": as an engineer, to me this would be the equivalent of going to a Gulag, 7000 days in Siberia.

I cringed the entire time at the lucid descriptions of testosterone fueled football throwing and bell ringing, tempered by own personal experiences with sales and marketing (none of them ever useful, and often highly detrimental to the places I worked at). These descriptions are exactly as I remember it.

A Gulag turned into a frenzy by testosterone. What a salt mine startups are! It's like volunteering for a labor concentration camp.

I bow in silent respect to startup founders who toil away in their basements and garages on their own spare time and with their own money, taking none from anyone else. If you are reading this, perhaps it might make you smile a little to know that someone somewhere admires you.

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#96
post #62

I'm surprised by the amount of salt (for lack of a better word in my vocabulary) in the comments. I've worked at a Canadian start up. It was not a unicorn, but you were expected to work long hours, be a "10xer", always be responsive, and put in hours on the weekend. Those expectations were never made explicit, but the company had a lot of churn for those who didn't "fit the culture" or acquiesce to the cult of person…

Did the company also pay 10x the market rates? Of course not, because they aren't really hiring 10x programmers (whatever that is), they are just hiring low self-esteem people, slap the 10xer label on them, strap them on the hamster wheel and work them to death. It's a bit like the series "The Good Place" -- "heeeyyyy we only hire 10xers, you're a 10xer, aren't you proud? Right, now go prove you're a 10xer by working…

I found this to be a really eye opening article: https://hbr.org/2018/02/if-youre-so-successful-why-are-you-s... on what the author calls "insecure overachievers".

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#97
post #35

I'm surprised by the amount of salt (for lack of a better word in my vocabulary) in the comments. I've worked at a Canadian start up. It was not a unicorn, but you were expected to work long hours, be a "10xer", always be responsive, and put in hours on the weekend. Those expectations were never made explicit, but the company had a lot of churn for those who didn't "fit the culture" or acquiesce to the cult of person…

Working for a big company/megacorp without valuable good stock options/bonuses on weekends and off-hours is dumb and abusive. On the other hand these startups are voluntary organizations. You choose to work there or not. I don't see anything wrong with a company deciding on a culture/work enviornment which attracts people who are very dedicated to the company (and hope to be rewarded in the long term as such) and are…

> On the other hand these startups are voluntary organizations. You choose to work there or not.

In the absence of a basic income guarantee, the decision to take a job is a long way from truly voluntary. As long as people are obliged to take jobs, these exploitative jobs have to be illegal (in the same way that e.g. conventionally unsafe working conditions are illegal, even if the employee might "voluntarily" agree to them).

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#98

In The Netherlands I see some similarities, but also a couple of differences. The startups that I have worked for (3) did: 1. Put in long hours (mostly as a result of deadline stress). 2. Have a mission/vision. 3. Acronyms and own company words that they invented themselves. Not necessarily a bad thing, a new word can mean a very specific concept. But they didn't have: 1. Stock options 2. An explicit company culture…

That's sad to hear. A friend of mine has been trying to get me to work in NL for a while and she says a common hatred of overtime is a big plus. Maybe it's just the company and not the country.

I think a bit more experienced Dutchies have this. The people I worked with in general were all quite young. But there was one senior programmer who has children and was vocal against overtime.

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#99

The author didn't seem work with devs (who were on the other side of the country) or investors, so I have trouble fully accepting their generalizations of tech startups as a whole. Sure, they experienced a lot of tech-specific phenomena like free drinks at the office, but it sounds like most of the problems were just due to interacting with a lot of obnoxious young salesmen. The part where they act surprised at the u…

Yeah, ROI and KPIs. Real cult stuff there. And the part against "teammates" in favor of "co-workers." Some of this is really stretching. There were some toxic stuff going on there for sure, but there is a lot of padding going on to get that article long. I'm from a unicorn. Employee lower 30s. Still there. Free beer, trips to Mexico, all that. Stand ups, acronyms, etc. At no time have I perceived the environment as t…

I'm from a unicorn. Employee lower 30s. Still there. Free beer, trips to Mexico, all that. Stand ups, acronyms, etc. At no time have I perceived the environment as toxic.

Wow, that is horrid. Why the hell would any self-respecting, experienced and successful professional who loves what they do and are good at it put up with "trips to Mexico"? All that college nonsense is utter bullshit. If I want to go to Mexico, it better be of my own accord on the company's paid vacation time that I earned and nobody better give me any lip, not because of some "brogrammer" or "bromarketing" "team building" exercise... What. The. Hell!

Re: After landing a lucrative job at a tech startup, I had made a terrible mistake

#100

I'm surprised by the amount of salt (for lack of a better word in my vocabulary) in the comments. I've worked at a Canadian start up. It was not a unicorn, but you were expected to work long hours, be a "10xer", always be responsive, and put in hours on the weekend. Those expectations were never made explicit, but the company had a lot of churn for those who didn't "fit the culture" or acquiesce to the cult of person…

> I enjoyed the article - is this too strong a look in the mirror for most folks?

I enjoyed the article but I do think it's very wrong as a general claim. I like my job (is that so wrong?) and don't want to see it smeared by association with two badly-behaved companies that happen to be in the same broad category.

Plenty of startups won't expect you to work after 5pm - I never did, across several companies. Plenty of staid non-tech companies expect unreasonable hours.

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