EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#131

Post by sacado2 » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:03 AM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #31

anonytrary wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the unspoken rule to just ignore GDPR until you're big enough and EU starts bitching at you, at which point you just pay them off and spend some resources on compliance?

How is GDPR a problem at all? Is it so hard to avoid personalized tracking of unregistered users, ask users for their consent at sign-up time and implement a button for them to export and delete their data?

Avoiding personalized tracking of unregistered users means you can't use Google Analytics or something equivalent. Not that it's impossible per se, but these tools have a strong added value, so...

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#132

Post by raxxorrax » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:04 AM UTC

baroffoos wrote: post #9

sjroot wrote: post #3

Policies like this make it glaringly obvious how little our government representatives around the world understand technology. It almost seems malicious, or at the very least anticompetitive. Who has access to such filtering systems already, or the resources to create one? GRPR regulations, while I absolutely realize their necessity, have made it difficult for me to expand my side business into the EU. This would jus…

I think they do understand exactly what is going on but they know that upload filters are faulty almost always in favor of people with money. Upload filters like ones on youtube are super biased towards taking down anything that looks like copyrighted content but they also take out a load of legitimate content. Its now up to the content owner to prove that their content was fair use or that its not even the same thin…

This is partly because justice systems in the western countries require you to have a lot of money if you want to see your rights preserved.

That aside, the bill is designed to target "the big ones" because publishers want to gain access to profits from advertising. You just need to look at the people who initiated this tragedy.

I hate it that people don't talk about what problems the law intends to solve. You will be able to quickly reduce the answer to special interests. At that point, a legislative process should stop immediately. Will be interesting if the european institutions are able to do so.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#133

Post by krageon » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:04 AM UTC

quanticle wrote: post #22

sjroot wrote: post #3

Policies like this make it glaringly obvious how little our government representatives around the world understand technology. It almost seems malicious, or at the very least anticompetitive. Who has access to such filtering systems already, or the resources to create one? GRPR regulations, while I absolutely realize their necessity, have made it difficult for me to expand my side business into the EU. This would jus…

The greatest irony is EU regulators whining about the dominance of Google, Facebook, etc, while passing regulations like this which make it impossible for anyone to compete with their ilk. Google and Facebook will have no trouble building the automated filters that are mandated by this legislation. The impact of this will be felt entirely by smaller companies with either will shut down, or, more likely, will never be…

If you actually looked at how these laws are worded (ie given specific provisions for the capability of a company), you would see that this kind of right-wing capitalist propaganda-like rhetoric holds no water.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#134

Post by LoSboccacc » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:05 AM UTC

Loic wrote: post #90

munchbunny wrote: post #4

I tend to put GDPR and this Copyright bill in different camps. The copyright bill is insane. GDPR is... also a bit insane, but the hard parts shine light on what we probably should have been doing which are now hard to do because we've spent so long ignoring the ethical elephant in the room. GDPR is very far from perfect, but I think it's still directionally good. The copyright bill is just bad.

GDPR is very good in fact. If you read through it as a person, it is basically the way we should have operated from the start. Reading it while wearing the hat of my role in my company, I can see all the points where we are collecting data without a well defined process and clear understanding from the end users. It is hard to fix this, but it is for my own good as a person.

The real issue with GDPR is that it's extremely under specified and we're left to educate guesses to find out what and what's not illegal until the matter is settled in courts.

For example a service provider can collect emails under the Article 6(b) clause to provide its services. But what happens when a user exits the contract? There's a conflict there because the provider need to keep hold of the email (to avoid user cancelling, asking for deletion then registering for another free trial) while the provider might not be holding consent anymore (Article 6(b) no longer applicable and consent subject to withdrawal at any time)

Would it be safe to store an hash of the subject for that purpose? Apparently, not: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026736491...

So what's the best practice there? We're all taking guesses. And that's not the hallmark of a good law.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#135

Post by jononor » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:09 AM UTC

boznz wrote: post #43

qwerty456127 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is GDPR a problem at all? Is it so hard to avoid personalized tracking of unregistered users, ask users for their consent at sign-up time and implement a button for them to export and delete their data?

The irony is most sites use cookies to click on the "this site uses cookies" and as I block them I get the same message ad-infinitum on every fucking site... and I'm in NZ NOT the EU

Don't worry, it happens even when you allow cookies. Because a good part of the news sites will ask you again (in a couple of days/visits) if you have disallowed them. In case you accidentally clicked the wrong thing, I guess is their excuse. Accept button is a single up-front button, where as Rejects are hidden behind Manage... Needs to be cracked down on.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#136

Post by krageon » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:10 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #13

madhadron wrote: post #8

Another possibility: the EU is serious and wants the content farm to show ads business model to die.

There are obviously some serious problems with ad-driven businesses on the net. But they have also done a lot to put technology in the hands of poor people. Any plans to replace them with paid-only services need to figure out some way to make them available to people on very limited incomes.

You would have to be at the extreme bottom end of the scale to not be able to afford the cost of hosting some content on the internet (maybe 3 euros per month?). It is something you could find space for in your budget unless you are literally starving and have absolutely 0 space in your budget for anything. If that were the case, I doubt this hypothetical person would be spending a lot of time on the internet in the first place.

And let's not forget these ads are all clamoring to make people spend money on things they "didn't know they needed", so it's not like they're materially doing someone who is very badly off any favours.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#137

Post by perl4ever » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:17 AM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #109

perl4ever wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't win an argument about whether something is unclear by proving (let alone merely asserting) it is so. This is something a lot of people seem unclear on.

The only people unclear on this point are people who have failed to do even the most basic research into what GDPR says. It is blindingly obvious that an email is information that can be used to identify a person.

I'm not arguing with you. If it is clear, then it suggests people saying it is not clear are basically trolls. Surely you can see that telling an apparent troll to admit being a troll is unproductive. You might be right, or you might be wrong, but you can't win that debate because it's about inner motivations and perceptions and not verifiable facts.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#138

Post by ttoinou » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:17 AM UTC

IshKebab wrote: post #117

ttoinou wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an electric car, so no oil consumption (parent talks bout mpg)

There is an mpg equivalent for electric cars based on the idea that 1 US gallon of petrol is 33.7 kWh.

Cool, didn't know that, thanks

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#139

Post by krageon » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:17 AM UTC

q12we34rt5 wrote: post #108

tzfld wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say neither the Great Wall nor the European laws will threaten the freedom of internet as much as the large US internet monopolies enforcing their behavior on the whole network.

>I would say neither the Great Wall nor the European laws will threaten the freedom of internet as much as the large US internet monopolies enforcing their behavior on the whole network. And thanks to this copyright law, these companies that affect both of us equally today will be much worse for your tomorrow. The upstarts to challenge these so-called monopolies won't be hamstrung by weird EU laws in the US but they…

Where were these "upstarts" when Google and Facebook were busy destroying the ecosystem before these laws? I'll tell you where they were: They were being assimilated using the huge piles of money these companies made selling anything and everything they could find on you to everyone who was willing to pay.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#140

Post by XCabbage » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 10:20 AM UTC

Sir_Substance wrote: post #120

tokyodude wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain to me how the deletion policies work? If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts? Does it include your messages to me? Does it include your posts that appeared on my feed? In the physical world all of those would be mine. Addresses: It would be my paper address book with your address written in it. Email: would paper letters you sent to me that I keep in my fi…

>If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts? I'm assuming that "my" in this sentence means a business, since individuals are not subject to GDPR, and that the thrust of your question revolves around, say, a customer support portal. Yes, addresses have to go unless you have a legitimate business reason to keep them. For tax purposes or to prove something in an active court cas…

> I'm assuming that "my" in this sentence means a business, since individuals are not subject to GDPR

No; tokyodude is asking what happens if you request that (for example) Google erases your data, and he has your email address in his Gmail contacts. Does Google, as the data controller who ultimately stores tokyodude's contact list for him, then have to purge your email address from tokyodude's address book?

> Listen man, I read the GDPR document /once/ almost a year ago now, and I remember the answers to your questions off the top of my head. I'm not a lawyer either, I'm a software engineer.

This condescension is obnoxious and unwarranted. Just take a look at the complexity of the conditions at https://gdpr-info.eu/art-17-gdpr/ dictating when the right to erasure applies. Point (b) seems to suggest that it applies by default if the basis for originally processing the data was the subject's consent... but that the controller can override that if they have another legal ground for processing. So can they just argue they have a "legitimate interest", under article 6(1) point (a), in preserving tokyodude's address book? I have no idea.

Meanwhile, point (f), linking to article 8 about children, is saying - I think - that a data controller must honour an erasure request if it's about data they collected from a child, even if they have another legal ground for processing that data. So even if the legitimate interests argument above would hold, if you're a 12-year-old, I think you absolutely can demand that your email address be purged from tokyodude's address book and he can't do anything about it?

How about your actual emails to him? Can you demand that Google deletes them from his inbox? As far as I can see, the answer logically ought to be "yes"; Art 17 (1) (f) applies and I don't see any exception that would let Google wriggle out of the obligation.

But I'm not sure if any of the above, because this stuff is vague and complicated. If you truly think it's simple, I invite you to walk us through the answers to the scenarios I've explored above, supporting your assertions with relevant references to the text of the law. I do not expect you to be able to do so.