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EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

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Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#111

Post by y0ghur7_xxx »

tokyodude wrote: post #97
Loic wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR is very good in fact. If you read through it as a person, it is basically the way we should have operated from the start. Reading it while wearing the hat of my role in my company, I can see all the points where we are collecting data without a well defined process and clear understanding from the end users. It is hard to fix this, but it is for my own good as a person.

Can you explain to me how the deletion policies work? If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts? Does it include your messages to me? Does it include your posts that appeared on my feed? In the physical world all of those would be mine. Addresses: It would be my paper address book with your address written in it. Email: would paper letters you sent to me that I keep in my fi…

> If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts?

If that address is visible to you because I gave you access to my data, then yes.

If that address is visible to you because I gave it to you and you put it there by yourself, then no.

> Does it include your messages to me?

No. Messages I wrote to you are yours. I gave them to you. You can keep them. They get deleted when/if you ask for your account to be deleted.

> Does it include your posts that appeared on my feed?

Yes. My posts are mine. If I make them public or share them with you, you can look at them, copy them, do what you want with them (depending on the license). If I remove my account they get deleted from my account. If you made a copy for yourself, you can keep the copy.

> It's not clear to me how those are handled by the GDPR and at what point things sent digitally from you to me end being my property and no longer your property.

As always, ask a lawyer.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#112

Post by TeMPOraL »

cageface wrote: post #13
madhadron wrote: post #8

Another possibility: the EU is serious and wants the content farm to show ads business model to die.

There are obviously some serious problems with ad-driven businesses on the net. But they have also done a lot to put technology in the hands of poor people. Any plans to replace them with paid-only services need to figure out some way to make them available to people on very limited incomes.

That's literally the only redeeming aspect of ad-driven model I'm aware of. It's good you point this out, personally I don't have good alternatives if one were to just burn advertising industry to the ground (something I fantasize about).

Still, advertising is a Red Queen's race; once a party achieves some advancement (like animated ads, video ads, tracking, etc.), everyone else has to follow suit. The relative situation of player is ultimately unchanged, but the baseline is more user-hostile. So there's plenty of possibility for regulators to simply roll adtech back to 1990s, and advertisers would still make their money.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#113

Post by q12we34rt5 »

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #70
berkmayer wrote: post #28

People underestimate what a big pain in the ass internet has been for the EU bureaucrats in the last 5 years. They can't just remove users freedom in one hit, they need to do it slowly: cookie laws, gdpr, copyright. And of course they always put a little bit of "sense" in every rule. This is a classic tactic that has been used by State organizations for maybe thousands of years. You can find examples in ancient Rome,…

GDPR is a good thing for citizens. But leave it to Americans to proclaim something that is good for people bad because it inconveniences corporations.

>But leave it to Americans to proclaim something that is good for people bad because it inconveniences corporations.

I just read the GP post again and I don't see anywhere he indicated his nationality. I understand this legislation is stressful and it may cause you to need something to lash out on but bashing someone's imagined country of origin isn't going to change anything and misdirected anger will probably only make you feel worse.

Furthermore, many of the posters I've seen criticizing the GDPR law have in fact claimed to be citizens of EU countries.

Addendum: I find it disheartening that I wrote this to help the parent poster recognize his misplaced anger and to state facts yet some other people also in an apparent act of misplaced anger/sadness/frustration take the time to down vote me. Hacker News you are better than this.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#114

Post by geocar »

y0ghur7_xxx wrote: post #111
tokyodude wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain to me how the deletion policies work? If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts? Does it include your messages to me? Does it include your posts that appeared on my feed? In the physical world all of those would be mine. Addresses: It would be my paper address book with your address written in it. Email: would paper letters you sent to me that I keep in my fi…

> If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts? If that address is visible to you because I gave you access to my data, then yes. If that address is visible to you because I gave it to you and you put it there by yourself, then no. > Does it include your messages to me? No. Messages I wrote to you are yours. I gave them to you. You can keep them. They get deleted when/if you as…

> If I remove my account they get deleted from my account.

Maybe.

There's an argument for the public good that can be appropriate (e.g. a public figure on twitter).

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#115

Post by geocar »

tokyodude wrote: post #97
Loic wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR is very good in fact. If you read through it as a person, it is basically the way we should have operated from the start. Reading it while wearing the hat of my role in my company, I can see all the points where we are collecting data without a well defined process and clear understanding from the end users. It is hard to fix this, but it is for my own good as a person.

Can you explain to me how the deletion policies work? If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts? Does it include your messages to me? Does it include your posts that appeared on my feed? In the physical world all of those would be mine. Addresses: It would be my paper address book with your address written in it. Email: would paper letters you sent to me that I keep in my fi…

> It's not clear to me how those are handled by the GDPR and at what point things sent digitally from you to me end being my property and no longer your property.

The ICO gives really good advice on this.

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-da...

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#116

Post by q12we34rt5 »

umichguy wrote: post #51
boznz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is most sites use cookies to click on the "this site uses cookies" and as I block them I get the same message ad-infinitum on every fucking site... and I'm in NZ NOT the EU

Kia ora! The "issue" here is that most sites which want to cater to worldwide audiences pretty much try to comply with influential legislation to stay on the good side. And GDPR/EU regs wield a big enough stick and come from a large enough region that you can't ignore them unless you want to block your site out completely to traffic coming from the EU. So they try and just do a worldwide rollout, irrespective of wher…

The "EU" as a market is only important to the largest players or as an after thought once you have a solid footing in e.g. the US for one simple reason. The EU has too many languages so you can't just target the entire population in one shot like you can in single language even larger economy in America. Even if you wanted to target the entire EU, in my personal experience I can tell you that some web services work well in a place like Germany yet fail hard in France so most small to mid-level players are only going to go in places where they make the most money and it may be years before they ever end up in say Italy or the Netherlands. All that adds up to the EU regulations having a much smaller impact on most startups than you seem to believe. And that impact will be zero on the ones who look at the regulatory landscape as it exists now and just decide to stay out.

Edit: I see somebody chose to express disagreement via mouse rather than keyboard. Interesting.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#117

Post by IshKebab »

ttoinou wrote: post #65
gmueckl wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Renault Twizy falls into that category. You need to find a better absurd example in the future ;).

It's an electric car, so no oil consumption (parent talks bout mpg)

There is an mpg equivalent for electric cars based on the idea that 1 US gallon of petrol is 33.7 kWh.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#118

Post by nusq »

Loic wrote: post #90
munchbunny wrote: post #4

I tend to put GDPR and this Copyright bill in different camps. The copyright bill is insane. GDPR is... also a bit insane, but the hard parts shine light on what we probably should have been doing which are now hard to do because we've spent so long ignoring the ethical elephant in the room. GDPR is very far from perfect, but I think it's still directionally good. The copyright bill is just bad.

GDPR is very good in fact. If you read through it as a person, it is basically the way we should have operated from the start. Reading it while wearing the hat of my role in my company, I can see all the points where we are collecting data without a well defined process and clear understanding from the end users. It is hard to fix this, but it is for my own good as a person.

GPDR is essentially some guidelines published by OCDE in 1980 turned into law. So yes we should already be operating like that from the start. I get the feeling that to some countries GPDR is not a big deal and to others is a nightmare, depending on the business culture.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#119

Post by belorn »

tokyodude wrote: post #97
Loic wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR is very good in fact. If you read through it as a person, it is basically the way we should have operated from the start. Reading it while wearing the hat of my role in my company, I can see all the points where we are collecting data without a well defined process and clear understanding from the end users. It is hard to fix this, but it is for my own good as a person.

Can you explain to me how the deletion policies work? If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts? Does it include your messages to me? Does it include your posts that appeared on my feed? In the physical world all of those would be mine. Addresses: It would be my paper address book with your address written in it. Email: would paper letters you sent to me that I keep in my fi…

I think that the best way to view the deletion policy is to imagine what would happen if someone stole the data. If it is anything that could get you sued over then that is data that needed to be deleted.

This will likely cover a bit more than if it was physical objects. To be fair, most physical paper address books would not include millions/billions of addresses, and would unlikely be stolen by accident. The only one that has billions of paper letters are the post office which is regulated. The physical world is not very different to GDPR if one includes the context of how many book shelves of information is being stored on companies databases.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#120

Post by Sir_Substance »

tokyodude wrote: post #97
Loic wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR is very good in fact. If you read through it as a person, it is basically the way we should have operated from the start. Reading it while wearing the hat of my role in my company, I can see all the points where we are collecting data without a well defined process and clear understanding from the end users. It is hard to fix this, but it is for my own good as a person.

Can you explain to me how the deletion policies work? If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts? Does it include your messages to me? Does it include your posts that appeared on my feed? In the physical world all of those would be mine. Addresses: It would be my paper address book with your address written in it. Email: would paper letters you sent to me that I keep in my fi…

>If you ask for your data to be deleted does that include your address in my contacts?

I'm assuming that "my" in this sentence means a business, since individuals are not subject to GDPR, and that the thrust of your question revolves around, say, a customer support portal.

Yes, addresses have to go unless you have a legitimate business reason to keep them. For tax purposes or to prove something in an active court case are both examples of a reason you could keep the address at least temporarily.

>Does it include your messages to me?

No, they could be anonymised instead. If the messages contain PII you might need to sanitize them.

>Does it include your posts that appeared on my feed?

Same as the previous question.

>It's not clear to me how those are handled by the GDPR and at what point things sent digitally from you to me end being my property and no longer your property.

This is defined on, like, the second page of the GDPR document. Article 2 "material scope" point 1.

This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data wholly or partly by automated means and to the processing other than by automated means of personal data which form part of a filing system or are intended to form part of a filing system.

GDPR kicks in when you start processing this stuff automatically. If you want to handle your entire businesses paperwork via a set of paper ledgers with humans in front of them, that'll make you GDPR immune.

Listen man, I read the GDPR document /once/ almost a year ago now, and I remember the answers to your questions off the top of my head. I'm not a lawyer either, I'm a software engineer.

If someone told you GDPR was complex, they lied to you. The legislation is dead simple and most of the document is actually not about what businesses need to do but about what the EU bureaucrats need to do. You only need to read about half of it, the rest is irrelevant to you.

If this matters to you, just go read the damn thing. Trust me, it's a fricking revelation to do so, you'll be staggered by the amount of bullshit people spout about it and the amount of needless fretting and hand-wringing they do once you know how simple it is. Don't get me wrong, the implementation may be hard for some businesses, but I'll also tell you straight up, there are lots of businesses voluntarily making their GDPR implementations harder and more expensive than necessary because they didn't bother actually reading the law and are instead going off third-hand chinese-whisper information, which is a crazy way to run a business.

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