Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma • Hacker News Board

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#81

Post by scotty79 » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 8:16 AM UTC

_ywdj wrote: post #74

scotty79 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Illness doesn’t happen without a cause Put 20 balls in 10 buckets each. Choose pair of buckets randomly and move one ball from one bucket to the other. After some iterations you end up with buckets withe many balls and buckets with few. You might think about buckets with few balls as 'ill'. Did their illness have a cause? Of course. The cause was the were subjected to random process. Just like your body is when it…

False analogy: the body isn't a closed system with outcomes determined primarily by randomness. Every state is a consequence of prior conditions, even if they're too complex to discern (same as weather).

That wasn't intended as an analogy just ilustration that causes of strong outcomes might be completely pseudo-random.

When you have pseudo random generator then everything is consequences of prior conditions yet some buckets will end up 'ill' and some 'healthy' without any singular cause.

Besides, body not being closed system strengthens my point that its state is result of so many factors that pinning something as vague as being healthy on a single cause (especially internal and psychological) is usually not a good idea. Especially if you don't know the mechanism.

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#82

Post by scotty79 » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 8:33 AM UTC

naasking wrote: post #69

scotty79 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7 years is a long time. I find it hard to believe that your life stayed exactly the same and the only thing you can attribute your partial recovery to is reminiscing on your personal, unique psychological scars. > chronic muscle and joint pain, Maybe new couch or different chair at work? Maybe bit more walking becsuse you now frequent different grocery store or now park usually bit further? Maybe you don't go anymore…

> that I think it's better to consider the possibility that nearly all ailments have physicsl causes. The brain is physical. Our experience is physical. Our experience can directly impact our other organs. Why else would your heart rate increase in fearful situations? Point being, "all ailments have physical causes" includes the brain. > You don't think that you have now skin problems because 10 years ago you ate too…

> Our experience can directly impact our other organs. Why else would your heart rate increase in fearful situations?

Yes. The question is how lasting and impactful that effect is in normal people suffering only normal life events, not continous abuse.

Your body can get back to normal just a year after quitting smoking. How lasting can be effect of spikes of pressure, pulse and homones many years after they happen?.

> Seems like he was suggesting that old traumas led to maladaptive behaviours which led to ailments.

That's reasonable but this means trauma no longer matters after all the years because it's the maladaptive behaviour that actually does the harm and it might be possible to stop behaviour and the harm without revisiting the trauma or lay the trauma to rest without correcting the behaviour and removing the harm.

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#83

Post by _ywdj » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 9:05 AM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #81

_ywdj wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False analogy: the body isn't a closed system with outcomes determined primarily by randomness. Every state is a consequence of prior conditions, even if they're too complex to discern (same as weather).

That wasn't intended as an analogy just ilustration that causes of strong outcomes might be completely pseudo-random. When you have pseudo random generator then everything is consequences of prior conditions yet some buckets will end up 'ill' and some 'healthy' without any singular cause. Besides, body not being closed system strengthens my point that its state is result of so many factors that pinning something as v…

It's not a single cause; it's several thousand life events and all the decisions, behavioural patterns, and internal bodily functions/reactions that are influenced by them. Thanks to years of research and experimentation I understand the mechanisms quite well. And it's turned out to be a very good idea for me.

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#84

Post by _ywdj » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 9:17 AM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #79

_ywdj wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly true. Strenuous exercise actually made my condition worse. That turns out to be a symptom of CFS/ME, I found out later. These therapies generally proved to be ineffective when I didn't do any emotional work. Since doing the emotional work, moderate exercise and nutrition work and stretching exercises (yoga/pilates) add to the effectiveness of my efforts.

If you tried to improve your condition with strenuous excercise... plus all other things you listed... paleo.. antidepressants... I'm beginning to suspect your improvement might be completely due to you stopping doing bad things to yourself while trying to improve your health. You remind me of the people that start little unhappy but make themselves miserable for life by strenuously searching their happiness around e…

> Regardles of my intelectual objections I'm glad you finally started to improve.

Thanks for the kind words and the discussion :)

I understand the urge to be skeptical and dismissive. I've been like that myself over this very topic before I experienced and learned what I have.

Please do keep an open mind and think about what I've tried to convey. After all, the whole reason I shared my experience is because it aligns with aligns with the scientific hypothesis that's in the very article on which this discussion is based. So it's not just something I dreamed up. There is a growing body of research on this topic - though I wish it could somehow grow faster.

Best wishes to you.

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#85

Post by _ywdj » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 9:29 AM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #77

_ywdj wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's notable that in order to attempt to refute my story you've had to conjure up a whole lot of hypotheticals. You might consider that over nearly 15 years experiencing pain and distress, I've done a bit of research and tried a few different approaches. In fact I've spent at least an hour or two per day for pretty much that entire period, trying various ways of getting well, and learning about ways of doing so. If a…

I conjured some hypotheticals just to illustrate how many possible causes there are. My doubt about cause of your problems being psychological traumas of the past comes from sheer number of possible other causes and from how many times those other causes were actual causes of peoples ailments while psychological factors were suspected. Also slow and partial recovery is suspicious to me. When you find the real cause a…

I'm so sorry to hear about your g/f's tumors. That must be a very difficult experience for you.

> Also slow and partial recovery is suspicious to me. When you find the real cause and remove it, relief is quick and large.

It's not a single cause. It's thousands of experiences/memories, and they need to be found and processed one by one, usually at a rate of no more than a few per week.

That said, some traumas have brought about "quick and large" changes when they've been found; that's how I've known the system was working.

But for thorough healing of deeply held traumas and related physiological ailments, it needs consistent work over a long period of time, and gradual improvement is to be expected.

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#86

Post by Chris_Chambers » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 11:54 AM UTC

_ywdj wrote: post #49

whatshisface wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that you did not have a natural recovery that just happened to coincide with the new intervention?

Because the onset and decline of my symptoms all map directly to my experience of trauma and the process of trauma identification and resolution. Here’s something for you to think about, as I think there’s a flaw in your question: do you think the onset of my symptoms was “natural”, just as the recovery was “natural”? I believe in causality, and I can comfortably accept that chronic illness is a natural consequence o…

I think you’re making a lot of people very uncomfortable with your implicit demand that we act like we agree with your beliefs all for the sake of protecting your feelings.

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#87

Post by afpx » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

_ywdj wrote: post #40

I’ve been testing this hypothesis - as best as one possibly can without conventional medical support - for the past few years. I’ve found that with persistence, emotion-based therapies are effective at bringing about healing of chronic physiological illnesses. Prior to that I’d spent several frustrating years seeking diagnosis for conditions that were debilitating but not apparently identifiable or treatable. To me t…

I had a lot of trauma as a child, and it left me with an enlarged and overly-connected amygdala. If I was living 10,000 years ago, this wouldn’t be so bad. It would just result in an over-active fight/flight response. However, in the modern day, it results in an ‘always-on’ stress response which saturates my body with stress hormones. And, the stress hormones cause lots of other health issues, and it becomes a cycle of chronic conditions.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, one can’t decrease the size or connectivity of the amygdala. So, one thing to do is to strengthen the executive controlling function of the prefrontal cortex. Some people recommend meditation training and mindfulness for this. And, it’s helpful sometimes. Another theory is to participate in activites that cause other hormones to counteract cortisol, etc. Unfortunately, those types of experiences (e.g. having a solid and broad community of support) are even more difficult in the modern world. So, the only long-term solution that I know of is to remove oneself from stress completely - which is also practically impossible.

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#88

Post by berberous » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

_ywdj wrote: post #40

I’ve been testing this hypothesis - as best as one possibly can without conventional medical support - for the past few years. I’ve found that with persistence, emotion-based therapies are effective at bringing about healing of chronic physiological illnesses. Prior to that I’d spent several frustrating years seeking diagnosis for conditions that were debilitating but not apparently identifiable or treatable. To me t…

What are the techniques/therapies you actually use?

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#89

Post by hollerith » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 2:01 PM UTC

The concept of the so-called cell danger response strikes me (not a health-care practitioner or researcher) as a promising explanation for how psychological trauma causes chronic physical illness: in particular, the trauma causes persistent changes in the brain, which keeps on activating the cell danger response.

Re: Some unexplained physical symptoms may be caused by unresolved emotional trauma

#90

Post by naasking » Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #82

naasking wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that I think it's better to consider the possibility that nearly all ailments have physicsl causes. The brain is physical. Our experience is physical. Our experience can directly impact our other organs. Why else would your heart rate increase in fearful situations? Point being, "all ailments have physical causes" includes the brain. > You don't think that you have now skin problems because 10 years ago you ate too…

> Our experience can directly impact our other organs. Why else would your heart rate increase in fearful situations? Yes. The question is how lasting and impactful that effect is in normal people suffering only normal life events, not continous abuse. Your body can get back to normal just a year after quitting smoking. How lasting can be effect of spikes of pressure, pulse and homones many years after they happen?.…

> That's reasonable but this means trauma no longer matters after all the years because it's the maladaptive behaviour that actually does the harm

You can't really know that for certain, even if it seems reasonable.

> it might be possible to stop behaviour and the harm without revisiting the trauma or lay the trauma to rest without correcting the behaviour and removing the harm.

Agreed, "might be" being the key phrase. But it might also not be possible, or it might even be more expedient or more therapeutic to revisit it.

Point being, it's not nearly so certain as you initially claimed.