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Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

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Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#251
post #244

Since when autistic spectrum disorders were redefined and reformulated? They used to be genetic brain structure/biochemistry related disorders with certain impaired social behaviors (which could be diagnosed using DSM) as their symptoms . How it is possible to "study" anything about human genetic disorders in a such unrelated model as mice, which does not have any cortex and other major areas, including language rela…

Diagnosis of autism has never been based on specific genetic or biochemical causes or mechanisms. It is defined by its behavioral symptoms. > which has different causes, and manifests itself on a different brain structure and is unrelated to any gut bacteria whatsoever How do you know it has different causes, when the causes of autism have not been enumerated? > Why this crap is considered to be a respectable science…

> How do you know it has different causes, when the causes of autism have not been enumerated?

A couple of reasons. One is that I'm struggling with it my whole life. Not a cosplayer, but actual high IQ individual who suffered a lot as a child in some social shithole. Almost like in popular movies.

Another reason is that I have studied some literature available and psychology in general. I could see other people with similar symptoms, I could see their parents and could identify who is the carrier, etc.

Current consensus, especially in the context of today's SJW madness, is disconnected from reality and what is. Autism is clearly genetic, it runs in families for generations, it usually carried by pretty women and it is more common in rural areas all over the world. These are obvious, easily testable facts, embedded into cultures.

Now who are you to fuking lecture me?

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#252

Rather, gut bacteria may affect certain social behaviours in mice.

How this is related to humans? What is autism in mice in the first place? What kind of fucking degenerates are "studying" or "modeling" a cross-species "mental" disorder??? On species with an almost unrelated brain structure as a "model"?? What kind of bullshit is this?

> How this is related to humans?

Feel free to experiment on humans first before trying mice.

> What is autism in mice in the first place?

Social behavior, measurable effects you would also use for diagnostics in humans etc.

> What kind of fucking degenerates are "studying" or "modeling" a cross-species "mental" disorder???

People who are smarter than you, obviously.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres always a choice, and choices have consequences. The kind of people who believe they had no choice are the worst because it shows a total lack of remorse for their selfish decisions. Phrases like “Look what YOU made me do” and “It’s societies fault” are warning signs that they learned nothing and you have a likely repeat offender on your hands.

> Theres always a choice, and choices have consequences. You're making the assumption of how your choice could have been anything different. That's an illusion and studying determinism is helpful in understanding why you're simply a biological input/output machine in a system being society. Even with the possibility of randomness existing as quantum mechanics suggests possible.. it wouldn't make a person have any cho…

Everything you base your comment on is a huge assumption. You don’t know that humans are just an input/output system, you’re just using some kind of inductive logic to come to that conclusion. Because everything you see seems to have a cause and effect relationship, you impose it on the laws of nature. I’m not saying that the theory is false, but I can definitely say that you’re putting a lot of belief in it being true without any real evidence.

Taking your thought process and building off the idea that everything is deterministic, we can frame the concept of “free will” as something that’s defined within that image of reality. In this case, why should you deny the concept of “free will” within a deterministic environment? Why not just define it as the random process that governs all of our ideologies? Additionally, why should you show sympathy to those in worse situations if everything is deterministic?

If society feels a need to punish criminals and remove them from society that’s another deterministic outcome that you yourself should know makes no difference either way in the grand scheme of things. Why someone would be deterministically wired to counter an argument by using their belief of a deterministic world on HN is beyond me though.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Theres always a choice, and choices have consequences. You're making the assumption of how your choice could have been anything different. That's an illusion and studying determinism is helpful in understanding why you're simply a biological input/output machine in a system being society. Even with the possibility of randomness existing as quantum mechanics suggests possible.. it wouldn't make a person have any cho…

Everything you base your comment on is a huge assumption. You don’t know that humans are just an input/output system, you’re just using some kind of inductive logic to come to that conclusion. Because everything you see seems to have a cause and effect relationship, you impose it on the laws of nature. I’m not saying that the theory is false, but I can definitely say that you’re putting a lot of belief in it being tr…

> Everything you base your comment on is a huge assumption.

No, it's a huge assumption to create the "free will" theory with no evidence and then argue against the opposite position where I'm using what is observable in nature with science. It's like religious people that argue against people that don't believe in a god.

> but I can definitely say that you’re putting a lot of belief in it being true without any real evidence

No you can't, physics, neuroscience, computer science, and mathematics all favor determinism. If you chime out quantum mechanics, go search my comment history.

> Taking your thought process and building off the idea that everything is deterministic, we can frame the concept of “free will” as something that’s defined within that image of reality.

Yah if you acknowledge you're a puppet by external forces and love your strings. Your freedom is love for how your controlled because it fits you and how you have no real control yourself but are fine with it. Yet, I myself don't consider that definition of free will what most people think and to me it just doesn't exist because that definition would be nonsense.

> Additionally, why should you show sympathy to those in worse situations if everything is deterministic?

Humanity makes progress when removing illusions from society and being rational. Society shouldn't be punishing persons who were unfortunate by the universe. Society should fix the problem of what resulted in a person having an undesired outcome and then rehabilitating the person back into society. Same goes for social, health, and financial problems.

> If society feels a need to punish criminals and remove them from society that’s another deterministic outcome that you yourself should know makes no difference either way in the grand scheme of things.

Yah, whatever happens is destined to happen and similar to how society once viewed the world as flat and until some persons came along to get the idiotic majority to understand. Time brings progress or the opposite and it's all fated to happen. I hope you're not trying to make an argument against understanding reality by the mere premise of you would dislike how it really is.

> If society feels a need to punish criminals and remove them from society that’s another deterministic outcome that you yourself should know makes no difference either way in the grand scheme of things.

See above.

> Why someone would be deterministically wired to counter an argument by using their belief of a deterministic world on HN is beyond me though.

Short answer: Go study determinism.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#255

A bit off topic but what is the HN consensus on probiotics? Any brands you can recommend?

They probably don't work. https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(18)31108-5

The key quote here being: "[...] Lactobacillus-secreted soluble factors contributed to [...]compromised gut mucosal recovery, highlighting a need of developing aFMT or personalized probiotic approaches achieving mucosal protection without compromising microbiome recolonization in the antibiotics-perturbed host."

They tested only multi-strain probiotics vs "aFMT" (fecal transplant). That is a far cry from saying "probiotics don't work".

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I figured out that my problems were related to intestinal microflora because they became ten times worse after undergoing 3 courses of H. Pylori eradication therapy in the span of only a few months, and I never improved for years afterwards. That's the short version; in reality, I suffered for a decade and a half before I caught on that I could do something about it, and it took about 5 years after that to get any ki…

Hi! Thank you so much for sharing! I'm suffering from somehing similar. Did you look into Candida? A lot of the symptoms sound very similar. H. Pylori antibiotics could have killed off good intestinal flora, causing candida overgrowth. Could you describe what other changes did you make, aside from adding S. Boulardii? Diet, supplements, medications? What helped you the most?

Candida is what a lot of people assume it is, but there's really no way to know for certain what microorganism is imbalanced in your gut, so like many people I started off thinking it was Candida but then moved to more general approach as I learned more (and learned of many, many things other than Candida that could be the problem). It is ultimately very limiting to assume that it's Candida; you'll find most people who think their problem is Candida struggle a lot and the suggested protocols for treating it do not seem to work very well.

You are right to assume that the problem is fungal, since it started after antibiotic therapy, but I find that fermentation of any kind makes me sick - even supposedly anti-candida things made me worse if they were fermented (claimed to provide tons of antifungal probiotics). I have had much better results admitting that I do not know the actual imbalance, and thinking of this as a known unknown.

The supplements that helped me most were caprylic acid (for reducing gut dysbiosis) and S. Boulardii, even though you cannot take both at the same time (the former weakens the latter).

I also benefited greatly from taking nutritional supplements to top off any deficiencies of vitamins and minerals I might have had, but I do not take these things continuously, because supplements usually have specific forms of ingredients that may compete with others - for example, you'll often find Vitamin E as alpha-tocopherol, which is OK for topping off your levels but in the long run, it depletes other forms of Vitamin E such as tocotrienols and other tocopherols.

See my other comments for more details, I wrote quite a bit.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those prison guards found it all too easy to slip into their roles, it’s sadly a rare characteristic to resist and see the right and wrong. The majority go along with the currents. I’d like to think that I’m different but statistically I probably already engage in acts that future generations will consider evil, like eating farm raised animals or reaping the benefits of living in a first world country which invades a…

If you look at the night sky you'll see more dark areas than points of light, but you still use those points of light and the contrast to define what brightness and darkness is. That would hold even if there was just one visible star besides the sun in the whole universe. > I probably already engage in acts that future generations will consider evil It's nothing to do with new insights coming about. If for example yo…

It seems you're saying that moral good is doing what an individual thinks is good at that moment. So for example if I am a crusader and I think that killing non-believers is a supreme good, then I am moral. But if I think that killing is wrong no matter what and I still kill then I am immoral?

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know how to express this in civilized terms. But I feel that biological parents that raised children, who later on become evil and take other people lives -- are responsible, some how. I am mentally, far from being contempt, with all these psychopaths (who (most of them), also have seen at some point in their lives, have seen a professional phycologist, regularly) -- go and kill defenseless kids or church/sy…

That's bunch of balony. I have two children who are polar opposite in behaviour. How do you account for that?

Why would there be a need to a 'account for differences in behavior?

Here is a very hypothetical scenario, I am struggling with:

A parent shows a pattern of drinking an driving under influence. As luck had it -- nothing bad happened. Then the child, does the same (when already having a valid driver license) -- and a horrible accident happens.

Is there some moral responsible that the parent carries? Is there criminal responsibility?

Just as in my initial comment, I do not know if this line of thinking has any merit at all.

Perhaps it is a 'bunch of baloney' as you put it.

I also have no idea on how to detect, that there in what instances there is an implied accountability of a parent (or a treating phycologist/psychiatrist).

I am hoping that some folks reading this thread , have historical, or even literature prospective that explores this angle.

How far the accountability of a parent or a treating phycologist goes/overlaps with the accountability of the perpetrator of a heinous act.

I can see that out of all the feedback on my comment so far -- there is 0 overlap of accountability suggested.

Thank you for your feedback.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you base your comment on is a huge assumption. You don’t know that humans are just an input/output system, you’re just using some kind of inductive logic to come to that conclusion. Because everything you see seems to have a cause and effect relationship, you impose it on the laws of nature. I’m not saying that the theory is false, but I can definitely say that you’re putting a lot of belief in it being tr…

> Everything you base your comment on is a huge assumption. No, it's a huge assumption to create the "free will" theory with no evidence and then argue against the opposite position where I'm using what is observable in nature with science. It's like religious people that argue against people that don't believe in a god. > but I can definitely say that you’re putting a lot of belief in it being true without any real…

>Humanity makes progress when removing illusions from society and being rational. Society shouldn't be punishing persons who were unfortunate by the universe. Society should fix the problem of what resulted in a person having an undesired outcome and then rehabilitating the person back into society. Same goes for social, health, and financial problems.

So if you believe in group selection has a large role in how society is shaped and will evolve then perhaps society's best interest is only to rehabilitate the troubled person only if the expected cost is lower than the expected reward. If you don't believe in group selection is that crucial then maybe it would be apparent why people like to punish if you take a look at game theory and experimental results with public good games. Keep in mind you are also making the mistake of assuming society has some sort of telos, or that moralism realism is true. So in that sense, if you ask me China's government seems very sensible in several policy areas because it doesn't give a shit about individuals.

Re: Gut bacteria may offer a treatment for autism

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably don't work. https://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(18)31108-5

The key quote here being: "[...] Lactobacillus-secreted soluble factors contributed to [...]compromised gut mucosal recovery, highlighting a need of developing aFMT or personalized probiotic approaches achieving mucosal protection without compromising microbiome recolonization in the antibiotics-perturbed host." They tested only multi-strain probiotics vs "aFMT" (fecal transplant). That is a far cry from saying "prob…

They're leaving the door open to them working if you match the right strain with the right person (this is their area of research, of course they would like it to work). But the study provides no support for that.

In contrast, fecal transplants have been shown to be effective for some diseases.

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