Can We Grow More Food on Less Land? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#201

Post by bagacrap » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 3:36 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #64

snarf21 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is what it has to eventually be. We all have a garden in our garage. We save tons on transportation costs throughout the chain. It has to be near zero work. People used to all have gardens in their backyard but stopped when they could afford the cheap produce at the store.

Where is the energy for your garage garden coming from? Plants need a lot of light. Most buildings do not have nearly intense enough light (house plants are low light plants that grow slow so they do fine, but if you want to grow food you generally want a plant that needs a lot more light)

From grow lights attached to a solar fed li ion battery, duh!

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#202

Post by bagacrap » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 3:39 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #80

snarf21 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is what it has to eventually be. We all have a garden in our garage. We save tons on transportation costs throughout the chain. It has to be near zero work. People used to all have gardens in their backyard but stopped when they could afford the cheap produce at the store.

We save tons on transportation costs, but lose many orders of magnitude more on redundant labor and economies of scale (one tractor working in a big field is a lot more economical than 1200 humans working in 1200 gardens). Maybe technological advancements will change all of that--perhaps we could have fully robotic farms, but even then I would expect one big factory farm with a handful of big, expensive robots to out…

Somehow it doesn't seem likely to be less efficient when my food grows a few feet away from my dinner table. How much extra labor is involved in logistics (field to silo to warehouse to grocery to home)?

That said I think it's rather naive to assume that everyone in the world has a garage or other indoor space to spare, the resources to climate control it, etc. The world's hungry don't live in single family homes in California.

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#203

Post by bagacrap » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #31

agumonkey wrote: post #3

What if we all had a green wall with aquaponics ?

I think this is what it has to eventually be. We all have a garden in our garage. We save tons on transportation costs throughout the chain. It has to be near zero work. People used to all have gardens in their backyard but stopped when they could afford the cheap produce at the store.

Ok great! Next problem: how do we make sure everyone on Earth owns a garage?

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#204

Post by steve_adams_86 » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

seszett wrote: post #185

black-tea wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah? And what about restaurants takeaways, canteens etc. which people consume about as much as they do home cooked food? Those places will always be buying the cheapest, most unethical food possible.

Here (Lille, France and Antwerp, Belgium) it is quite easy to find restaurants, takeaways, food trucks, etc, that offer food made from either locally sourced, organic or ethical ingredients, or all of those at the same time.

Likewise in Victoria, BC, Canada. I have no excuse not to eat ethically and sustainably because the options are never more than a short walk or drive away.

Not all people have this luxury though. On one hand, I have to make the choice to eat ethically but also spend more money. When I lived up north, options were a lot more scarce, and the average income was a lot lower. The community I lived in heavily relied on the cheapest options available.

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#205

Post by Joe-Z » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #198

Joe-Z wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you care to explain what 'CNS' is?

In this context, it stands for Central Nervous System [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

Thank you!

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#206

Post by mac01021 » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #98

mac01021 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine it depends on the vegetarian. And not all meats/animals are the same. I myself eat meat, but do not eat mammals. I am looking forward to the widespread availability of safe, delicious, lab-grown meats. > the healthiest way to eat I suspect that, for most people, the best plant-based diet is equal to the best omnivorous diet in terms of nutrition. Admittedly, it can take more effort to get your protein. > me…

>Show me a carbon-neutral cow. Any purely grass fed cow should be close, no? They're part of the normal carbon cycle, and that carbon is pulled back in when the grass regrows. The problem is when you bring sequestered carbon (fossil fuels) into the mix.

No, because that land could be be reforested if it weren't kept for the cattle.

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#207

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

wmf wrote: post #34

travisoneill1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not interested in eating less meat so we can grow the population more. It's not a cost issue. Why do we want a population size that requires people to cut back on quality of life?

Plenty has been written on "the population question". Your intuitions don't agree with my understanding of the state of the art. Many environmentalists say that even the current world population can't afford Western middle-class quality of life. Efforts to limit population growth are already in place but it's mostly occurring in parts of the world too poor to do anything about it. We don't "want" higher population bu…

[deleted]

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#208

Post by vram22 » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

iguy wrote: post #54

vram22 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. As a kid growing up in India, reading about recurring starvation / famine there, and in Africa, etc., I also read about some European countries dumping mountains of butter and other edibles into the sea, due to surpluses, and maybe to keep the price up. I mean, I understand it is about economics, supply and demand, profits, etc., but still, shudder

Instead of making the famous mountain of butter (beside a lake of milk) they now pay famers not to farm, which has its own oddities. Including discouraging of re-wilding I think, as the land has to be plausibly farm-able to get the cash. This aside, it's worth knowing that developed countries typically throw away much less food than developing ones. Basically because Tesco is much better at logistics than a million g…

>Instead of making the famous mountain of butter (beside a lake of milk) they now pay famers not to farm, which has its own oddities.

Crazy world we live in, where being (over-)efficient has to be subsidized. There may be a thing such as being too efficient for our own good. Also, the efficiency as measured, only relates to money / profits / maximizing use of resources in industrial (including food) production, and often does not take a holistic view, which should include sustainability of resources, quality of life (not just economic standard of living) and sustainability of the planet.

I had read E. F. Schumacher's book "Small is Beautiful" when a teenager, when I was more into these sorts of things (did organic vegetable gardening and dairy farming, used a biogas plant, etc.), before I got into the software field full-time. I still recommend his ideas and book about appropriate technology to interested people - the concepts and principles have not changed, though technologies have evolved, and a hybrid model may be needed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._F._Schumacher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Is_Beautiful

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriate_technology

>Including discouraging of re-wilding I think, as the land has to be plausibly farm-able to get the cash.

Yes, re-wilding is a good idea.

>This aside, it's worth knowing that developed countries typically throw away much less food than developing ones. Basically because Tesco is much better at logistics than a million guys trying to drive into Delhi. I don't have the link to hand but there was a nice comparison US vs Mexico on this somewhere.

Possibly. I do know that plenty of waste happens in India too. In fact, Schumacher's ideas are very much suited to and applicable to developing countries. IIRC he was influenced by Mahatma Gandhi some, and Gandhi also had done significant work in this area, in practice, not just talking about it, either - including hugely encouraging Indian people to do naturopathy, nature cure, small scale industry work like traditional means of spinning and weaving for khadi (a great hand-made Indian cotton textile), etc. We still have Khadi & Village Industries Emporiums here, where one can buy clothing made of khadi:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadi#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_wheel

http://www.kvic.org.in/kvicres/index.php

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#209

Post by ScroogeMcDoug » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

travisoneill1 wrote: post #14

kieranmaine wrote: post #4

What would make people eat less beef? Since taxes seem a hard sell, would subsidizing chicken + non-meat protein help? As a vegetarian I'm trying to get my head around what would help change the behaviour of the meat eating HN members.

I'm not interested in eating less meat so we can grow the population more. It's not a cost issue. Why do we want a population size that requires people to cut back on quality of life?

It's a selfish attitude, but certainly a more realistic one for most people. Look at it this way: You enjoy eating meat, and aren't interested in giving that up for the benefit of others just like others aren't willing to give up their desire to have children for your benefit.

Re: Can We Grow More Food on Less Land?

#210

Post by agsdfgsd » Sat, Dec 08, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #164

brownbat wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just cutting meat farm subsidies Most farm subsidies do not go directly to meat. In fact, current subsidies probably shift some land away from pastures and grazing to oversupplied field crops: https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture/subsidies You can absolutely be both against the farm bill and simultaneously in favor of reducing American meat consumption... But you're probably looking at corn and soy subs…

Where do you think most of that corn goes?

Most of it doesn't go to any single use. Only 36% of US corn production goes to livestock feed. 40% to ethanol production. And while people like to complain about the caloric inefficiency of animals vs plants, the reality is that chicken being fed corn produces 5 million calories per acre, the same calories per acre as wheat. Almost all plant crops produce fewer calories per acre than that. For some reason nobody seems to be demanding that we stop eating wheat, nevermind things like lettuce, spinach, broccoli, onions, tomatoes, etc, that produce far fewer calories per acre.