The Riots in France Are What Happens When Facebook Changes It Algorithm • Hacker News Board

Re: The Riots in France Are What Happens When Facebook Changes It Algorithm

#31

Post by blakesterz » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

JacobJans wrote: post #12

There is something about the Facebook platform that encourages thoughtless distribution of incorrect and violent ideas. I don't say this lightly; a certain subset of users seem to get hooked on the propogation of "viral crazy," with no regard to the factual accuracy of their posts, or the real world consequences of their ideas. I believe what happens is that people become "gamified." They use the logic of video games…

Maybe it's the people that use most/all social media platforms the most often tend to use it for distribution of incorrect and violent ideas? I don't really know if they platforms encourage it, or that people who do it just tend to do it, regardless.

Re: The Riots in France Are What Happens When Facebook Changes It Algorithm

#32

Post by motohagiography » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

Was disappointed that one of the comments was marked as dead on this thread.

It contained an important point (if in isolation):

"Since the rioters are protesting a Green Tax, the media (and HN) concludes that Facebook, Russia, or a general lack of cognitive ability among the French working class must be the cause."

Barring the self sabotaging dig at HN, treating peoples concerns as incoherent provokes escalation, which appears to be the case in France. The popular culture war likely reduces to traditional class lines, and history tends to treat managerial elites who develop contempt for their workers rather badly.

Between the Guardian and other newspapers forfeiting their credibility for cheap political points, and the troubling view that filter bubbles and social media censorship create a simulation that props up an increasingly unpopular elite, sites like BuzzFeed should act like they have a sense of proportion.

Surely Marie Antoinette had no idea what she would be remembered for either. If only someone could have got through to her.

Re: The Riots in France Are What Happens When Facebook Changes It Algorithm

#33

Post by candiodari » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

maeln wrote: post #15

> [...] is a beast born almost entirely from Facebook No, it's not. Yes, a lot of the communication circulate through social media (like most things nowadays), but the movement was also covered a lot in traditional medias at the very beginning of the movement. It is also completely disregarding that there was a lot of movement "against the government"/a specific law before this specific movement (train worker, public…

Yes, but they're arguing that those movements were "under control". Meaning nobody knew, nobody cared.

When Paris was shut down for 4 days due to student protest for Macron's new labor laws, it lasted on the front page of "Le Monde" for about 3 hours. Agriculture protests ? Not a peep. Taxi protests ? A mention. Public sector strikes ? Mention. Students again ... and again ... and again ? Not much at all. And yet all of these were massive protests. Tens of thousands of people at least.

Essentially, there has been protests against Macron's policies with a huge strike every 2 months at least (and every month in the last year). But reading the media you would never know this.

And of course, the net result of the censorship is that protestors know: they need to grab international attention ... or just go home. Well the "gilets jaune" have gotten international attention. By massive turnouts, and by violence. Is this bad ? Well, yes, but nobody in government can say this is the least bit surprising.

One example I thought was particularly glaring was the "yellow vests" going outside of France proper. This was 3 weeks into this protest. Nothing in the local newspapers whatsoever. Then suddenly a message "half the country's police force (not just the city's) deployed to Charleroi because 3 yellow vests seen". Wait, what ? Why the hell would the police do that ? Well, now we know. And even now, the reporting about the extent of the protests is ... well let's just say it doesn't match what Twitter and Youtube are (effectively) reporting. From the cities I know, I must say, especially the Youtube videos looks quite convincing, and I don't think at all this is fake news. But you won't find the extent of the protests in the newspapers even today.

So I must say, one gets the feeling rather strongly a significant portion of the government complaints is about the government first gaining, then losing the ability to censor information about social protests. They want to prevent information spreading through facebook/twitter/youtube/...

I don't feel they should get that power. At all. Not even if there are violent incidents during the protests, because let's face facts here: the government doesn't care about the violence. They care about the protests becoming public knowledge.

And keeping a Goldman Sach's banker in power.

Re: The Riots in France Are What Happens When Facebook Changes It Algorithm

#34

Post by John_KZ » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

uxhacker wrote: post #23

John_KZ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Although facebook has the power to change mainstream politics on long timescales, claiming that all those protests are products of AI brainwashing is just wrong. Even more so, instead of touching on why facebook should be a host of information but not a communications modulator, this article, like many others, insists that Facebook should brain-wash and manipulate people the way they like, not the way they d…

The key question is what responsibility does facebook have ? If it is just a platform, or does it carry the same responsibility a newspaper would have to a reader's letter ?

They have to choose one of the two, publish their decision, and act accordingly.

Honestly the real problem is that they pose as a raw communications medium while they are definitely not one. Facebook has political, cultural and financial interests according to which they filter your communications. Even if they say "we alter your data stream" somewhere in their ULA, they are still dishonest as they do it in a way that convinces you thay the effect is small while in fact it is not.

One more consideration: editorialized newspapers are fine, because all readers get the same paper and and work out the bias. If the bias is extreme or blatant lies are circulated, public discourse will lead to consequences for the publisher. With facebook, filtering is so pervasive, elegant and fleeting that you can't tell what's done on purpose and what isn't (a design goal imho).

So I'd say that even if Facebook publicly declared itself to be a heavily edutorialized publisher, without a way to know the bias, they shouldn't be allowed to operate on a personalized content basis, because unless they publish their feed algorithm and a way to verify it works as it's supposed to, there's no way to know if they are acting maliciously.