Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself • Hacker News Board

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#81

Post by andrepd » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

scottlocklin wrote: post #69

matt4077 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wonder about Franco's bad rep, why don't you actually check it out, instead of challenging people to prove the evil of fascist to you from first principle, and claiming their virtue if they don't. What is your professed naïveté supposed to accomplish, except to serve as propaganda for a universally abhorred fascist while simultaneously retaining your option to claim ignorance when challenged?

It wasn't actually a fascist regime (the Falangists were brought under political control by Franco); it was a standard issue military dictatorship, encompassing many right wing tendencies. Including things most English speakers would consider bonkers, like Carlism, which was a movement to install ... some other guy (from a slightly different branch of the Bourbon family) on the Spanish throne. Carlism was arguably mo…

It wasn't actually a fascist regime

It is as much not a fascist regime as Hitler's wasn't, in that you can argue academically that there are better terms to describe it than "fascist". Nonetheless, you can clearly identify a set of characteristics that Franco's Spain has in common with fascist ideology, therefore you can call it fascist (among other terms that some argue are more descriptive).

Franco also wasn't and isn't universally abhorred;

Over 50% of Russians say they miss the Soviet regime and would prefer it to the current autocracy. What are we to conclude from that, according to you?

reading a book will serve you better than ... expressing sentiments.

But isn't that what you just did?

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#82

Post by pmoriarty » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

patrickg_zill wrote: post #71

connorelsea wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the only source I could find as well but I also found others saying it was false and that Putin was lying and misguiding

So the leader of a G8 country speaks to a room full of rabbis, and the news article is published in a Jewish newspaper, and there's no rebuttal or other commentary in the article ... But some guy somewhere on the internet says it's not true. Okay.

Is it possible for a leader of a G8 country to lie to room full of rabbis?

What cynical times we live in.

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#83

Post by icebraining » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

scottlocklin wrote: post #80

pmoriarty wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Franco also wasn't and isn't universally abhorred; many Spaniards still admire Franco for whatever reasons, and there are large monuments and contemporary political rallies by fairly ordinary people honoring his memory." Many Germans still admire Hitler, many Russians still admire Stalin, and many Chinese still admire Mao. In Mongolia, Ghenghis Khan is admired as a great leader of their nation, and the negative thin…

Your point being? Point and sputter isn't much of an argument, even with great goblins like the ones you mention above. Franco by any sane measure, was a much lesser goblin. As was his next door neighbor Salazar. For their times, and particularly considering their situations, they were fairly reasonable leaders. Which is probably why they were integrated into NATO.

Spain only joined NATO in '82, years after Franco's death, already in the democratic era.

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#84

Post by CapitalistCartr » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

rjplatte wrote: post #74

andrepd wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It very much has many factual errors pointed out by historians several times since its publication. If you're truly looking for an objective account and not something to stoke emotions and tell you want you want to hear, I think you're better off reading an actual history.

Define "What you want to hear"? It's someone's perspective, which is valuable.

As Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#85

Post by pmoriarty » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #45

patrickg_zill wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First Soviet Politburo was between 80 and 85% Jewish. Jewish population was no more than 4% in Russia at the time. Commissars (the political office) and Cheka officials had similar numbers in terms of representation. Underlying reason included the suspicion that anyone Orthodox was tainted by secret sympathy for the Tsar or the Orthodox church. Jews were therefore seen as trustworthy, having no alliance or sympathy f…

This is an anti-semitic rewriting of history. The first Politburo was: Lenin (his mother's father was jewish. Judaism is transmitted maternally, so neither of Lenin's parents were jewish, and neither was he) Trotsky: jewish Stalin: Not jewish. Launched Anti-semitic campaign around '50 Lev Kamelev: Jewish father, orthodox mother -> not jewish (see above) Nikolay Krestinsky Not jewish So that's 1/5, or 20%, and you're…

"Judaism is transmitted maternally, so neither of Lenin's parents were jewish, and neither was he"

Wait, Judaism is transmitted? Like a disease?

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#86

Post by otras » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

I highly recommend the article A Tiny Village in Vermont Was the Perfect Spot to Hide Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn[0] to learn more about his life in Vermont. His relationship to the town is very interesting and particularly interesting to me as I used to live near Cavendish.

[0]: https://www.neh.gov/humanities/2018/summer/statement/tiny-vi...

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#87

Post by andrepd » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:17 PM UTC

scottlocklin wrote: post #80

pmoriarty wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Franco also wasn't and isn't universally abhorred; many Spaniards still admire Franco for whatever reasons, and there are large monuments and contemporary political rallies by fairly ordinary people honoring his memory." Many Germans still admire Hitler, many Russians still admire Stalin, and many Chinese still admire Mao. In Mongolia, Ghenghis Khan is admired as a great leader of their nation, and the negative thin…

Your point being? Point and sputter isn't much of an argument, even with great goblins like the ones you mention above. Franco by any sane measure, was a much lesser goblin. As was his next door neighbor Salazar. For their times, and particularly considering their situations, they were fairly reasonable leaders. Which is probably why they were integrated into NATO.

Which is probably why they were integrated into NATO.

They were integrated into NATO for the same reason that Fulgêncio Batista was propped up by the US, or the Iranian Shah, or the guy that overthrew Jacobo Arbenz. That reason is: the US benefited economically and militarily from that situation, and any other considerations (moral, ethical, the well-being of the people, whether it was democratic) simply did not enter the equation one way or the other. Who cares if Arbenz was democratically elected and his land reforms lifted millions out of poverty, the United Fruit Company was making less money for their owners after some inhumane exploitation was outlawed so in comes the US coup, etc etc.

You simply cannot argue morality or democracy when discussing this.

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#88

Post by andrepd » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:21 PM UTC

nec4b wrote: post #37

varjag wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a public figure you used to support disappoints you in some substantial way, it's best to change your views rather than paint yourself in the corner by rationalizing their abhorrence. All humans are fallible. There have been some regrettable Nobel Peace Prizes out there, and Amnesty International had to call off some of their awards.

I don't know who he disappointed, but he didn't disappoint me. His analysis of murderous regime is spot on, and there is no discussion about that. There are only character assassinations and name callings for totally unrelated things from his opponents. First discreditation, then disqualification and lastly liquidation.

What about the killings and other atrocities committed by Putin's oligarchy? What about the suppression of dissent? What do you think of that, I'm genuinely curious. This is not an attempt to derail, it's that how can "his analysis of murderous regimes be spot on" if he supports Putin?

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#89

Post by nec4b » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #25

nec4b wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Five years of freezing in siberian winter, starving and doing grueling manual labor makes the gulag experience not so terrible for you?

I like how all your posts consist of "he was in a gulag therefore you can't call him out or criticise him".

I find it terrifying that you feel the need to attack gulag survivor more than the regime that put millions of people in the gulag.

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#90

Post by patrickg_zill » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #82

patrickg_zill wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the leader of a G8 country speaks to a room full of rabbis, and the news article is published in a Jewish newspaper, and there's no rebuttal or other commentary in the article ... But some guy somewhere on the internet says it's not true. Okay.

Is it possible for a leader of a G8 country to lie to room full of rabbis? What cynical times we live in.

It certainly is possible.

However it is unlikely that at least one person wouldn't correct the record after the fact, or make sure that the article would have an opposing view mentioned.