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Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

the-tls.co.uk

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Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#41

Post by varjag »

nec4b wrote: post #37
varjag wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a public figure you used to support disappoints you in some substantial way, it's best to change your views rather than paint yourself in the corner by rationalizing their abhorrence. All humans are fallible. There have been some regrettable Nobel Peace Prizes out there, and Amnesty International had to call off some of their awards.

I don't know who he disappointed, but he didn't disappoint me. His analysis of murderous regime is spot on, and there is no discussion about that. There are only character assassinations and name callings for totally unrelated things from his opponents. First discreditation, then disqualification and lastly liquidation.

There have been a number of notable Soviet dissidents who were no less apt in their criticism of the regime yet did not descend to imperialism or anti-Semitism.

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#42

Post by patrickg_zill »

varjag wrote: post #38
effry-much wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you are anti-Marxist, and not anti-Semite why do you feel justified to point out the ethnicity then? You never hear people saying "I'm anti-Stalinist-Georgian", "I'm anti-Chinese-Maoist", yet it's somehow benign with Jews? If you find the ideology abhorrent, why you focus on a particular ethnicity? It is almost as if you believe there is something special about Jews and Marxism than, say Russians and Marxism?

First Soviet Politburo was between 80 and 85% Jewish. Jewish population was no more than 4% in Russia at the time.

Commissars (the political office) and Cheka officials had similar numbers in terms of representation.

Underlying reason included the suspicion that anyone Orthodox was tainted by secret sympathy for the Tsar or the Orthodox church.

Jews were therefore seen as trustworthy, having no alliance or sympathy for the Tsar, or for the Orthodox beliefs.

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#43

Post by nec4b »

varjag wrote: post #41
nec4b wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who he disappointed, but he didn't disappoint me. His analysis of murderous regime is spot on, and there is no discussion about that. There are only character assassinations and name callings for totally unrelated things from his opponents. First discreditation, then disqualification and lastly liquidation.

There have been a number of notable Soviet dissidents who were no less apt in their criticism of the regime yet did not descend to imperialism or anti-Semitism.

How does the existence of more notable dissidents make his critique of the regime invalid or less true? If you found out that Newton was a thief, would that invalidate his laws of physics for you?

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#44

Post by varjag »

nec4b wrote: post #43
varjag wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been a number of notable Soviet dissidents who were no less apt in their criticism of the regime yet did not descend to imperialism or anti-Semitism.

How does the existence of more notable dissidents make his critique of the regime invalid or less true? If you found out that Newton was a thief, would that invalidate his laws of physics for you?

Don't ascribe me your ideas please. Did I say anywhere that his critique of regime wasn't true?

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#45

Post by matt4077 »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #42
varjag wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are anti-Marxist, and not anti-Semite why do you feel justified to point out the ethnicity then? You never hear people saying "I'm anti-Stalinist-Georgian", "I'm anti-Chinese-Maoist", yet it's somehow benign with Jews? If you find the ideology abhorrent, why you focus on a particular ethnicity? It is almost as if you believe there is something special about Jews and Marxism than, say Russians and Marxism?

First Soviet Politburo was between 80 and 85% Jewish. Jewish population was no more than 4% in Russia at the time. Commissars (the political office) and Cheka officials had similar numbers in terms of representation. Underlying reason included the suspicion that anyone Orthodox was tainted by secret sympathy for the Tsar or the Orthodox church. Jews were therefore seen as trustworthy, having no alliance or sympathy f…

This is an anti-semitic rewriting of history.

The first Politburo was:

Lenin (his mother's father was jewish. Judaism is transmitted maternally, so neither of Lenin's parents were jewish, and neither was he)

Trotsky: jewish

Stalin: Not jewish. Launched Anti-semitic campaign around '50

Lev Kamelev: Jewish father, orthodox mother -> not jewish (see above)

Nikolay Krestinsky Not jewish

So that's 1/5, or 20%, and you're an anti-semitic troll with no interest in the facts.

You are also ignoring the part where the only Jew in the Politbro was executed rather early, while a member with absolutely no connection to Judaism, namely Stalin, appears to have had a rather, let’s say, “outsized” influence on the later failings of the system you want to nstrumentalize in your anti-Semitic insinuations.

Not to mention that this summation of individual sins and good deeds in an effort to paint their associated groups is the very definition of prejudice. In fact, I now realize I should probably never have bought into that premise?

(also: If you start arguing Lenin's judaism based on his heredity, I will invariably have to violate Godwin's law)

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#46

Post by matt4077 »

asianthrowaway wrote: post #8
FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #6

Shame much of what he wrote down was a lie, or at the very least fiction. Which wasn't necessary, because the system was terrible enough. The Gulag Archipelago is useful as a source for life within the system, but cant be taken as truth. His wife is quoted as saying the book was meant as fiction, but the West took it as fact (i'm sure they had no good reason at all to promote the shit out of an anti-Soviet book). Sol…

I always wondered why Franco has such a bad rep. I'm not really knowledgeable about the Spanish civil war but it seems he prevented Spain from becoming a Stalinist totalitarian country, which is a good thing in my book. I mean no doubt he was a brutal dictator but in the grand scheme of things he was by far the lesser of two evils. Edit: also I think your comparison of the American prison system and the gulag to be r…

If you wonder about Franco's bad rep, why don't you actually check it out, instead of challenging people to prove the evil of fascist to you from first principle, and claiming their virtue if they don't.

What is your professed naïveté supposed to accomplish, except to serve as propaganda for a universally abhorred fascist while simultaneously retaining your option to claim ignorance when challenged?

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#47

Post by agsdfgsd »

enriquto wrote: post #5
asianthrowaway wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I heard it's rather... controversial, to say the least.

He's a writer, not an historian. Thus his non-fiction works do not have to be read like history books, more like journalistic opinion pieces. In that sense, the factual errors on this book are mostly irrelevant, and the work is still very interesting and insightful.

Are there factual errors in it? I haven't seen any actual valid criticism of the factual content of the book, just "its antisemitic ban it don't let anyone read it!".

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#48

Post by agsdfgsd »

varjag wrote: post #28
nec4b wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, people surviving gulags (where btw. lot of jewish people died as well), need to be called names, because they them selves were not saints and said stupid things sometimes.

When a public figure you used to support disappoints you in some substantial way, it's best to change your views rather than paint yourself in the corner by rationalizing their abhorrence. All humans are fallible. There have been some regrettable Nobel Peace Prizes out there, and Amnesty International had to call off some of their awards.

>When a public figure you used to support disappoints you in some substantial way, it's best to change your views

Why? Just because an author disappoints you, doesn't mean you need to try to undo your enjoyment of a book they wrote.

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#49

Post by connorelsea »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #42
varjag wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are anti-Marxist, and not anti-Semite why do you feel justified to point out the ethnicity then? You never hear people saying "I'm anti-Stalinist-Georgian", "I'm anti-Chinese-Maoist", yet it's somehow benign with Jews? If you find the ideology abhorrent, why you focus on a particular ethnicity? It is almost as if you believe there is something special about Jews and Marxism than, say Russians and Marxism?

First Soviet Politburo was between 80 and 85% Jewish. Jewish population was no more than 4% in Russia at the time. Commissars (the political office) and Cheka officials had similar numbers in terms of representation. Underlying reason included the suspicion that anyone Orthodox was tainted by secret sympathy for the Tsar or the Orthodox church. Jews were therefore seen as trustworthy, having no alliance or sympathy f…

I'm pretty sure this isn't true but I'm curious, got a source? Afaik they were somewhat overrepresented but never a majority and only about 5% of party members were Jewish although percentages in leadership were slightly higher at around 15%

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/66ecq3/were_...

Re: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as he saw himself

#50

Post by agsdfgsd »

CapacitorSet wrote: post #29
effry-much wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's an old trick of antisemites. If you lurk antisemite pages or speak with antisemites, you'll find that a common talking point is the importance of Jews in the birth of communism (and the supposed link between Jews and communism in general), and likewise the importance of Jews in contemporary finance and politics. If you were to listen to such talking points, you'd argue that they were not actual anti-semites, but…

>Being the author of important pieces of literature unfortunately does not prevent one from holding wrong positions - a similar, well-known case is James Watson, co-discoverer of the DNA, Nobel Prize in Medicine, and yet holding eugenetic views.

The view he expressed which you vilify him for is not wrong. He simply said there is no reason to expect two different population groups that evolved in different circumstances to have identical mental capabilities. You may dislike it, but the simple fact is we have isolated dozens of genes that are responsible for a significant portion of the racial IQ difference. His view is not wrong, it is correct.

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