A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor • Hacker News Board

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#51

Post by cesarb » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:12 PM UTC

yholio wrote: post #44

My bank locked me out of my account because they didn't approve of the way I was using it (crypto whitdrawal). All fully legal, from an exchange account I hold in my name. They now give me the runarround asking me to prove with paper documents that I own the money (interesting reversal to physical interaction). No calls, no case person I can talk to, just an impersonal postage address, and if I contact the branch all…

> It creates a paralel, private justice system

Can't you just bring the traditional justice system back into it, for instance, by suing them in small claims court demanding the release of your money? The judiciary supersedes whatever internal mechanisms the bank has; if the court tells the bank to give back your money corrected for inflation plus moral damages, they have no choice but to comply.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#52

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:12 PM UTC

gdhbcc wrote: post #47

schrodinger wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting your money in a bank _was_ your choice though; you could have kept it under your mattress.

It really isn't though. Try paying 600€ worth of taxes in Portugal with cash and all you'll get is a fine because its banned. Try to buy a macbook? You better have a bank account because its illegal to buy it using cash. You owe 3000€ to a friend who lent it to you? Can't just give him the money 100€ bill at a time because that's illegal too. Anyone who says "you're not forced to use banks" or "cash has value because…

[deleted]

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#53

Post by kaybe » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

jk563 wrote: post #43

ganzuul wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seem to remember something about 'legal tender'. Meant you had to accept cash payment. Of course you could refuse the customer on other grounds... Might not be a thing in the land of hipster-ish coffee shops.

> Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning, which relates to settling debts. It means that if you are in debt to someone then you can’t be sued for non-payment if you offer full payment of your debts in legal tender. [1] [1] https://edu.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-...

So what differentiates an unpaid bill from a debt?

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#54

Post by hoffs » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:18 PM UTC

Santosh83 wrote: post #16

Rainymood wrote: post #15

A cashless society allows every single transaction to be tracked, I do not want this.

And controlled remotely. It gives massive power in the hands of those who control the tech. It's downright dystopian. I mean... the tech itself is great... but combined with what we know of human nature, it's a recipe for high-tech feudalism.

I mean it already gives such power, there's no one stopping someone adding couple of zeroes next to their account.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#55

Post by RhysU » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

privateSFacct wrote: post #41

mcv wrote: post #29

If the problem is that some people don't have a checking account, wouldn't it better to provide them with a cheap/free checking account? Even if all local shops accept cash, there's still tons of stuff you can't do without a checking account. On the topic of cash-free living: I only use cash for 3 things these days: to buy cheese, to pay my cleaning lady, and for my son's weekly allowance. Even the babysitters accept…

1) What is more secure - Venmo behind face ID on an apple phone or a checking account that literally anyone who has the numbers (which you give when you write a check) can take money out of, either by creating a versa check or doing an ACH debit so all your money disappears? You are a poor person - are you in a good position to see dispute resolution through? 2) Garnishment orders - can the state or other collectors…

> What is more secure - Venmo behind face ID on an apple phone...

Anything broadcasting transactions, by default, with no way to turn off egregious abuses strikes me as a personal security risk. See https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/whats-...

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#56

Post by icebraining » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

gdhbcc wrote: post #47

schrodinger wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting your money in a bank _was_ your choice though; you could have kept it under your mattress.

It really isn't though. Try paying 600€ worth of taxes in Portugal with cash and all you'll get is a fine because its banned. Try to buy a macbook? You better have a bank account because its illegal to buy it using cash. You owe 3000€ to a friend who lent it to you? Can't just give him the money 100€ bill at a time because that's illegal too. Anyone who says "you're not forced to use banks" or "cash has value because…

I don't think that law is common, though; even the European Central Bank was quite critical when it was presented by the Portuguese assembly.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#57

Post by icebraining » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

i_know_nothing wrote: post #17

There is an important point to be discussed, that happens mainly in violent/poor countries: the frequent robbery (and it's consequences, like murders). A cashless economy will help solve this problem that affects everyone, especially the poor (paradoxically).

They just need to work in pairs; they'll demand your card/phone and PIN, then hold you while they buy something with it. It's well known that criminals use unofficial currencies when they can't use cash.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#58

Post by Santosh83 » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

hoffs wrote: post #54

Santosh83 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And controlled remotely. It gives massive power in the hands of those who control the tech. It's downright dystopian. I mean... the tech itself is great... but combined with what we know of human nature, it's a recipe for high-tech feudalism.

I mean it already gives such power, there's no one stopping someone adding couple of zeroes next to their account.

Well, now you can take your money out as cash under extreme necessity. In a fully cashless society your entire life savings are just a few bits on a hard disk...

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#59

Post by ilovetux » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

oh-kumudo wrote: post #48

schrodinger wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting your money in a bank _was_ your choice though; you could have kept it under your mattress.

Actually...I doubt that. At least in US, for the company I worked for, I don't think there is an option for me to be paid in cash in the first place. Even in reality people use check though, that still requires a bank account.

I've recently had to cash checks without having my own bank account for a couple of months. The experience left me hating the banking industry. Certain banks won't even cash their own checks anymore! Other banks will cash their checks but want to take a $10(+-) fee for the privilege.

I ended up using Walmart to cash a check (the ones which weren't hand-written because Walmart won't do that) and using their moneycard as my debit/credit card for payments. This system worked reasonably well, but I do not want to go back to it.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#60

Post by ilovetux » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #29

If the problem is that some people don't have a checking account, wouldn't it better to provide them with a cheap/free checking account? Even if all local shops accept cash, there's still tons of stuff you can't do without a checking account. On the topic of cash-free living: I only use cash for 3 things these days: to buy cheese, to pay my cleaning lady, and for my son's weekly allowance. Even the babysitters accept…

Why do you need cash for buying cheese specifically?