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Goodbye, EdgeHTML

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#571
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different commenter here, but same issue as the parent. I'm on a 2016 MBP. When I use Chrome, my fans stay off or at around 1200rpm at all times unless I open a video or a Twitch stream, at which point they jump up to around 1400rpm and the highest the CPU temp gets is around 50c. On Firefox, my fans will randomly jump up to 3000rpm when doing only normal web browsing, even on simple sites like HN. I'm using FF right…

Exactly the same with me: I tried switching to Firefox 63 last week on a 2015 MBP running MacOS 10.11, and compared to Chrome it seems to use a lot more CPU and thus makes my machine run noticeably hotter. I guess this might be due to the new Rust layout engine I've heard about which is more parallelised?, but even just having a single tab playing youtube or a gif uses more CPU in Firefox, so maybe it's something wit…

> even just having a single tab playing youtube or a gif uses more CPU in Firefox, so maybe it's something with hardware acceleration?

My investigations (their bugzilla, the news about their company, I've been following for a long time) point to the opposite: it's the "old code" which nobody wants to improve: it doesn't help if the "new" code is fast to draw Some detail when the "old" decides to draw or update the stuff that doesn't even has to be updated or drawn. And it's not just drawing too, it's all the processing that happens during the life of the page with the "moving" images. Nobody, as "especially managers in Firefox." There was a number of developers in some Asian country, paid by Firefox, who were in charge for fixing in the old code, and they were simply fired. It seems it's not "strategic" for the managers to "fix" things, only to "experiment" with "new" things like ads or "new technologies" or whatever.

The "more CPU and GPU use" of Firefox is absolutely observable on any platform, not only on Macs. There are also the bugs submitted, but it doesn't seem that there's any priority in fixing them. From their perspective "it works, it's just that those who measure such use notice it." It's of course not so. The battery is empty earlier, the notebooks are hotter, the response lags. There are reported bugs demonstrating exactly what you observed: compared to any other browser even a single video on the "modern" site in Firefox needs much more processing power. It’s easy to reproduce in Windows too.

But obviously fixing the performance problems is not priority for the managers, when there's anything "new and shiny." Because they don’t see that as serious bugs: “the same page uses 10% of the max possible power in Chrome but 20% in Firefox.” “Who cares?” It’s too long-term goal.

Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#572
post #19

Seriously, switch to Firefox. It's good again, and prioritizes privacy.[0] After Chrome's forced-sign-in debacle [1] I switched away from Chrome on all my platforms (Windows, Linux, Android) and haven't missed a thing. [0]: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/11/firefox-sync-privacy/ [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18055161

Does it prioritize privacy? I haven't used Firefox in a long time, so my impressions of it are based on news stories, like them launching a partnership with sketchy VPN services or building in "easter egg" advertisements for television shows.

Firefox is the best browser for privacy.

Lately it introduced the ability to do "Multi-Account Containers". They behave like light profiles. But you can use containers to box social networks. See:

1. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/multi-account...

2. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/facebook-cont...

3. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/google-contai...

This ability is currently unmatched in other browsers.

It also has built-in tracker blocking. Nothing you can't get with uBlock Origin or Privacy Badger, but it's nice to have it on by default, especially in Private Mode.

Note that people complain about the "strict mode" of that tracker blocking not being enabled by default. However I can tell from my experience that the strict mode breaks websites.

See also the design of Firefox Sync, which was designed to not leak data by default, as compared with Chrome's Sync: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/11/firefox-sync-privacy/

Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not eleven, not by far. It's enough that I see this bug as the number one reason no one uses firefox at my job, where there are hundreds of devs - anecdotal evidence of course, but still telling. I don't know why you're trying to deffend the idea that this bug is not a (relevant) thing. I'm not OP btw.

> I don't know why you're trying to deffend the idea that this bug is not a (relevant) thing. I'm not OP btw. Why? Hand waving and tantrums don't mean that what OP is experiencing is representative of the state of Firefox on OSX. OP is positing that it's this ancient bug that Mozilla developers have just ignored because they're so awful/incompetent/lazy/whatever, but there's no way it would be problematic on hardware…

I just dont get it. This is a highly technical forum.

Most people here are superusers, and i personally am a dev.

Off course i have tried everything possible, clean install, new profile, HW acc off, boot to safe mode etc. To insinuate that i have installed some weird plugin and even talked directly to the FF devs without trying basic troubleshooting or have some weird anti virus plugin installed is beyond weird.

I also wrote it's the same with all of my colleagues MB's (15 people).

So how is this a tantrum and a vocal insignificant minority of it comes up again and again and the post is sitting at the top with lots of people agreeing? (i know not everyone has the problem).

Your other points i don't get. Scaling should not be an issue as it's not an issue for any other apps - disabling the GPU by accident, what? All other software works fine. You shouldn't need a discrete GPU for browsing.

This issue is all over the place, here just from their own bugtracker only from the last 12 months (detailed from this post https://www.kamshin.com/2018/07/firefox-on-macos-insane-batt...):

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404042

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1422090

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1191965

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1429522

And from their subreddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/7d6pc6/firefox_is_...

https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/7g6k9n/firefox_qua...

https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/8if1fs/anyone_else...

https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/763avh/firefox_qua...

https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/6wv0d9/why_is_fire...

And here the devs asks for help for once (and admit a problem):

https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/7g6k9n/firefox_qua...

Just searching for random posts from the last 24 hours on reddit r/mac and bingo:

https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/a3gk1k/macbook_air_201...

and you can find many more:

http://www.goo.gl/vDeiDF

That you suggest all of these hundreds of people are imbeciles with weird plugins is beyond disrespectful when so many of us has tried to help mozilla debugging to no effect and with little info in return. Most of us are devs or superusers - the issue has been detailed through many technical blog posts, and investigated by highly technical people thank you.

Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#574
post #19

Seriously, switch to Firefox. It's good again, and prioritizes privacy.[0] After Chrome's forced-sign-in debacle [1] I switched away from Chrome on all my platforms (Windows, Linux, Android) and haven't missed a thing. [0]: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/11/firefox-sync-privacy/ [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18055161

Too bad it completely kills your CPU on a Mac. I tried switching completely a month ago for the third time. Sadly absolutely nothing has happened in a 5 year time-span. The performance on my high-spec i7 Macbook Pro is abysmal. ( same across several company Macbooks ) The fans speed up constantly like they have done it for years. It's completely unusable for "professional" work or just regular multi tab browsing and…

I had this same issue on my late 2013 Macbook Pro Retina, but it didn't stop me from using it :)

Since I switched to 2018 Macbook Pro Retina the issue is gone.

Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#575
post #19

Seriously, switch to Firefox. It's good again, and prioritizes privacy.[0] After Chrome's forced-sign-in debacle [1] I switched away from Chrome on all my platforms (Windows, Linux, Android) and haven't missed a thing. [0]: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/11/firefox-sync-privacy/ [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18055161

Brave browser is solid as well, built in ad blocking and Tor support. CEO is brandon eich and it's built on Chromium

> and it's built on Chromium

That's a negative to me - again, too much browser engine consolidation. :/

Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best thing about Firefox is Mozilla's Multi-Account Container tabs[0]. Essentially it allows you to put different tabs into different light-weight profiles, with their own session, cookies, and state. That means if you want to log into Facebook but don't want Facebook following you online, just give Facebook its own container. Mozilla has anti-tracking already baked in, but Multi-Account Containers are a whole ot…

I tried to move from Chrome's profiles to Firefox's container tabs. I prefer Chrome's take on it where sessions are shared across all tabs in a window rather than across similarly styled tabs in the same window. .. I just went to find the github issue for other people with a similar need[0] and found someone has posted a link to an extension called sticky containers. A new tab opens in the same container of the last…

Firefox has always had profiles, very much acting like Chrome's, but for some reason they didn't make it easy to use. Navigate to:

about:profiles

Now you can have multiple windows, each window with its own profile and the profile determines everything, from the browser's history to the extensions installed.

Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#577
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do know what he's talking about, as I've had the same exact problem. When I did research about it (about a year ago) it seemed the devs were considering retina macbooks with a non-default resolution as origin of the bug for some reason - I'm referring to the display setting that appears as "more space" in the regular OSX settings menu, not some arcane hidden configuration. I regularly check back because I love the…

Me too, and as it happens, I'm running on retina with "more space" enabled. Firefox is unusably slow, to the point where I'm probably abandoning it after a few weeks of really trying to get into it. Which is a shame, because I love the idea of multi-account containers and other privacy features.

So if you disable the "more space" configuration, does it work better? If this is the primo hypothesis, it sounds easy enough to check.

Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Works fine here 1st step to trying to debug would be removing your old profile completely, maybe try to disable extensions and HW rendering acceleration

Thanks but check out the other comments, or their subreddit, or any other HN FF thread. Many people have this problem. Also i am a dev - i have tried all possible options to remedy this issue. I even wrote that i talked to FF devs directly. Wouldn't it be weird if i hadn't tried basic techniques? It's like there is this weird tribal thing going on where there is this passive aggressive attitude towards the people hav…

It's definitely frustrating, and sometimes even advanced devs don't know (or forget) about some detail that might be helpful.

Sometimes "why someone hasn't tried that" is less about being clueless and more about not assuming how much people know about things.

I can imagine someone at Mozilla going "how do we debug this" and failing to reproduce the problem (I run FF on two different Macs/OSX versions and it runs ok on both)

Maybe FF can add some telemetry or have a special debug version for those with the issue, but I see how it can be frustrating

Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have sympathy, debugging is hard! But it's weird that across hundreds of threads no one from the dev group has anything to say, or that there is not disclaimer or "ask for help" or whatever. "Yes we are aware that a certain percentage has severe performance problems on osx, we believe this has to do with the Retina displays blah blah" - instead it seems like no one from the dev group has been following this problem…

Possibly because complaining on hacker news and calling people incompetent on threads they have no reason to personally follow isn't an optimal strategy for receiving tech support.

I wrote that i talked to the devs directly? I also wrote that i have followed the issues for years. What makes you think this is the last resort?

Check my other post:

https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=18626325

This issue is all over the place.

I will admit it was too harshly written, the issues seems to only be on the osx platform and Firefox is great on all other platforms, but the issue has been detailed in their own tracker and subreddit for many years.

Re: Goodbye, EdgeHTML

#580
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Servo is going to be a massive Good Thing (tm) for Mozilla, but they have messed up a few times with UI anti-patterns and sneaking extensions into updates that users didn't opt for. They have seriously breached our trust like Google and it will take years to earn back that trust. I switched to Firefox away from Chrome recently. I am happy with this but I wish they had a friendly UI you could bring up to expos…

I'm afraid our hopes of Servo resurrecting Mozilla were short lived. From what I understand, work on Servo for Desktop has been phased out considerably. See https://blog.servo.org/2018/03/09/servo-and-mixed-reality/

Wow... that's a shocker.
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