Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended • Hacker News Board

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#351

Post by brokenmachine » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:30 AM UTC

I have to say, the coverage of this bill on the news has been atrocious.

I've seen zero discussion of the possible ramifications of losing all security companies in Australia. Any software company that depends on security (and which one doesn't?) would be insane in the membrane to think they could credibly work in Australia now.

All they are saying is "the bill was passed to access encrypted communications of terrorists and criminals".

No discussion of no judicial oversight either.

News orgs are shooting themselves in the foot because there's no possibility of a journalist protecting their sources anymore with this nightmare.

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#352

Post by bigiain » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:36 AM UTC

stephen_g wrote: post #264

anotherhuman0 wrote: post #201

Somebody over on Reddit [1] went through all the submissions (there was a consultation period) and summarised and tallied them [2]. Fully 99%+ of submissions were against the bill. A sad day for democracy indeed. A church in Tasmania was in favour, because child pornography. 1. https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/a3j466/assistanc... 2. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dowpZ_Xtr1N_DgkHJN8i...

Lots of people reporting that the offices of MPs and senators were inundated with calls today and over the last few days. Twitter was on fire too. Ignored, just like the expert testimony before the PJCIS. Who do these fools think they were representing? Today I watched my country's democracy die via livestream, with the words "Labor withdraws all amendments".

> Who do these fools think they were representing?

The same interests they are always representing. Themselves. The organisations and lobbyists that got them voted in. The organisations they're looking forward to offers of high-priced consultancies and directorships after the next election.

Did you expect anything else?

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#353

Post by exodust » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:41 AM UTC

aiisahik wrote: post #308

As an Australian citizen who has spent many years in the US, I can say that this law is in line with the main ideology of the Australian government: extreme parentalism. You run a red light: fine for $450 in the mail. No court date, no arguments. You exceed the speed limit by 5km/h: $200 fine in the mail. No arguments. It is brutal but it's hard to deny that it works. Australia has some of the lowest per capital road…

> but it's hard to deny that it works. Australia has some of the lowest per capital road deaths in the OECD

Actually, we're in the middle according to the data, there's a few countries with better rates: https://bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/international_road...

In regards to being fined for 5 km/h over the limit, there's no evidence that small increases in speed over the limit contributes to accidents. It's excessive speed that kills, like going 100 in a 60 zone. The other big killer is distraction and driver fatigue.

As for red lights, I'm fine with the strict rules there. I've almost been hit walking across the road by red light runners.

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#354

Post by bigiain » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:41 AM UTC

brokenmachine wrote: post #122

StavrosK wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the laws of mathematics make this impossible. Count yourself lucky to be living in a country where the laws of mathematics don't apply.

The laws of mathematics are "commendable", but they're nothing compared to Australian laws hurriedly passed 5 minutes before the Christmas holidays. History will not remember these people well.

History will most likely remember these people as the completely incompetent board of director of the fossil fuel industry that presided over the final execution of the planet's habitable eco system. The fact that they were politicians or even the Prime Minister for 5 minutes briefly in late 2018 won't even be a footnote...

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#355

Post by exodust » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:46 AM UTC

photojosh wrote: post #344

aiisahik wrote: post #308

As an Australian citizen who has spent many years in the US, I can say that this law is in line with the main ideology of the Australian government: extreme parentalism. You run a red light: fine for $450 in the mail. No court date, no arguments. You exceed the speed limit by 5km/h: $200 fine in the mail. No arguments. It is brutal but it's hard to deny that it works. Australia has some of the lowest per capital road…

To be fair, I got a fine in the mail years ago for stopping in a no stopping zone. (Couldn't find a carpark and had a screaming baby in the back) The notice says you can contest in court, which I did and got off. That was back as a student, it wouldn't be worth my time to take a whole day off anymore. :(

Yeh you can elect to contest any fine in court. I've done it twice here in Aust, and had the fine thrown out both times, including a big $750 driving unregistered fine.

It takes about 4 hours or more out of your day to attend court which is obviously not possible for everyone.

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#356

Post by brokenmachine » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:47 AM UTC

daemin wrote: post #198

brokenmachine wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think about logistics they'd have to make contact with people in the company to even find out who the devs are who are capable of making a backdoor. That would probably tip off others in the company as to what was happening anyway. You'd think they'd essentially have to serve the whole dev team with the secret order. I think you could immediately resign. It's not a slavery bill... is it?

There's LinkedIn, there's social media, there's actually keeping a record of who enters and leaves a company's premises. There's heading down to the bar after work on Friday. There's community events and meetups.

But just seeing who's going into the building doesn't tell you exactly who is handling encryption and security in the codebase.

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#357

Post by bigiain » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:47 AM UTC

caf wrote: post #159

brokenmachine wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were going to supply a definition of "systemic weakness", but I can't find one in the bill itself. I'm patiently waiting for their proposed method of reading end-to-end encrypted messages without introducing a systemic weakness. But the meaning of words don't seem to matter anymore in the reality distortion field that is the Australian government. This is all supposedly to somehow make us more secure for Christm…

I'm patiently waiting for their proposed method of reading end-to-end encrypted messages without introducing a systemic weakness. I imagine that they ask for some tailored malware to be delivered to the specifically targeted device/user.

So the UK spooks have a wonderful euphemism for this. "Equipment interference":

https://www.theregister.co.uk/AMP/2018/12/06/uk_gchq_bulk_eq...

Which, of course, leads on to a somewhat less specifically targeted "Bulk equipment interference", because once we have the capability, it'll _surely_ not get misused, right? I'm eagerly awaiting the hilarious verbal gymnastics they'll come up with to make a Technical Assistance Notice compelled "Bulk equipment interference" capability some how not a "systemic weakness"... I'm sure that'll end up in linguistics textbooks and industry jokes for decades...

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#358

Post by brokenmachine » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:50 AM UTC

shakna wrote: post #310

lettergram wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a lot of the reason a large part of the US is pro gun. A few hundred people with weapons can cause so much pain they can negotiate with a nation (see the troubles in Ireland, especially near the end). Point is, so long as a populous is armed it can strike fear in the government. Australia doesn’t allow guns in its citizens hands any more. They gave up their rights, now the government can do what it wants witho…

Australians did not give up guns in citizen hands. And per capita, we have more guns than our military.

? citation please ?

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#359

Post by brokenmachine » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:57 AM UTC

sebazzz wrote: post #254

robryan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful criminals will surely be able to find a set of software that isn't affected. Australia isn't the US, only a small portion of software companies would have a large local presence here.

The problem is that a backdoor might not be so obvious. It can be simply a wrong chosen algorithm key size, and you need to be a cryptographic expert to know that.

That would have to be a systematic weakness... except systematic weakness is probably doublespeak for "whatever the fuck we want to do" anyway.

Re: Australian parliament passes encryption laws unamended

#360

Post by mimixco » Fri, Dec 07, 2018, 2:58 AM UTC

This is a big deal for people of all countries as the major tech firms will quickly build-in the required backdoors to stay in compliance -- and they won't just be there for Australian citizens; they'll be there for all of us.