Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your italicized paragraph is a good clue. I started a reply which was getting too long and technical, with the aim of looking at three prongs. Post-Newtonian elements are at work, and it is easy to fool oneself thinking of the underlying one: metric gravitation and how it manifests within extended objects. (It does ; we can see that from the figure of the Earth and its internal structure, and from other roundish cele…
After reading the Karen Masters link and your first response a few times, I think I am starting to understand what you want to point out. If the universe were empty and expanding, then some light non-interacting test dust would indeed get pulled apart everywhere and at all length scales. But when we add matter and let it collapse, the collapsing matter kind of pulls spacetime with it as it collapses and may eventuall…
'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
271–280 of 302 posts
Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
> they don't make it all the way there because they are repelled by some other force A repulsive force is not the best way to think about it. The potential of the nucleus is the usual -1/r, and goes to (negative) infinity at zero. A repulsive force would be incorporated into the potential and appear as a bump around the nucleus, and would mess up the electron orbital. A hand-wavy explanation of why the electron doesn…
A different hand-wavy explanation. The places that an electron can be found are described by a wave pattern. If the electron is staying in place around a nucleus, that wave pattern has to be a standing wave that reinforces itself. To reinforce itself it has to wrap around the nucleus an integer number of times. This explanation doesn't just explain why it doesn't fall in, it also explains why there are discrete shell…
I also don't think FabHK's argument works as an analogy to my problem with negative mass. The electromagnetic field is not self-reinforcing in the same way.
Imagine that you're holding a marble of negative glass in your fist. Negative glass is indistinguishable from ordinary glass except that its mass is negative rather than positive.
As we all know, the first step in solving any physics problem is to draw a free-body diagram. ( http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20130616.png ) Let's draw one here. First, we'll do one for an ordinary marble:
1. The enormous mass of the earth attracts the marble downward proportionately to the marble's mass.
2. The marble cannot accelerate downward, because it's stuck in your fist. Your fist experiences a downward force equal to the weight of the marble.
3. By Newton's third law, your fist exerts an upward force on the marble equal to the force exerted by the marble on your fist. This is exactly equal to the weight of the marble, but in the opposite direction. The two forces cancel, and the marble is at rest.
Now for the negative marble:
1. The enormous mass of the earth attracts the marble downward proportionately to the marble's mass. Because that mass is negative, the marble attempts to accelerate upward.
2. The marble can't accelerate upward, because it's stuck in your fist. Your fist experiences an upward force equal to the weight of the marble.
3. By Newton's third law, your fist exerts an downward force on the marble equal to the force exerted by the marble on your fist. This is exactly equal to the weight of the marble, and in the same direction, effectively doubling the marble's weight. The marble is now trying twice as hard to accelerate upward into your fist.
2. (Again.) The marble can't accelerate upward, because it's stuck in your fist. Your fist experiences an upward force equal to double the weight of the marble. Nothing has moved; we're still just trying to work out the balance of forces within the system at rest.
3. (Again.) You can see where this is going.
What is the conceptual breakthrough that rescues negative mass from this trap? (Note that saying the marble has negative inertial and gravitational mass, as opposed to negative inertial mass and positive gravitational mass, doesn't help: the marble will be trying to accelerate downward instead of upward, but it will still be doing it with infinite force.)
Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
#273Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your italicized paragraph is a good clue. I started a reply which was getting too long and technical, with the aim of looking at three prongs. Post-Newtonian elements are at work, and it is easy to fool oneself thinking of the underlying one: metric gravitation and how it manifests within extended objects. (It does ; we can see that from the figure of the Earth and its internal structure, and from other roundish cele…
After reading the Karen Masters link and your first response a few times, I think I am starting to understand what you want to point out. If the universe were empty and expanding, then some light non-interacting test dust would indeed get pulled apart everywhere and at all length scales. But when we add matter and let it collapse, the collapsing matter kind of pulls spacetime with it as it collapses and may eventuall…
In typical vacuum solutions of the Einstein Field Equations the metric is what determines the available geodesics[0]. Putting an isolated object into a vacuum solution causes it to "select" an appropriate geodesic from the ones available, and if left alone, that object will at every time be somewhere on that geodesic. A "test object" is pointlike and massless, so adding it to the vacuum does not change the background metric at all. But if we make it heavier, or bigger and rotating or oscillating, then the spacetime is no longer exactly modelled by the vacuum solution. At that point one might use perturbation theory, and consider the vacuum metric as a background and the metric the not-quite-a-test-object itself generates as a perturbation field overlaid on that.
The algebra usually looks like g_{\mu\nu} = \eta_{\mu\nu} + h_{\mu\nu} where the greek subscripts are the usual indices running 0,1,2,3 in 4-dimensional Lorentzian spacetimes (like ours, and most that you'll ever run into), \eta is the chosen background field, h is the perturbation field, and g is the "true" metric. One can also add perturbation fields or play around with higher-order contributions from self-interactions (say if the not-a-test-object is a black hole binary, or a solid fragment of a supernova (an Earth-massed blob of hot metal?) moving relativistically).
If we start with an expanding Robertson-Walker spacetime vacuum (no matter, not even dark matter), and add a single galaxy cluster, we need to figure out the metric to see how it evolves (or to see what geodesics are available for test particles we throw in as probes).
We can do this in a couple of ways: either using perturbative methods like above, e.g. g = {RW} + {galaxy}, or start with a single g for the whole spacetime from a known set of appropriate solutions like Schwarzschild-de Sitter or Kottler, or by engaging in "inside"/"outside" stitching together of metrics like I described earlier (swiss-cheese). (There are other approaches too!)
Each has advantages and drawbacks.
The middle option has the problem that a galaxy cluster will only look like a Schwarzschild source from so far away that it shrinks to a point. Closer observers will see (optically, even!) that it's lumpy, and if they have sufficiently sensitive gravimeters or a probe like Synge's "five-point curvature detector" they will see that Schwarzschild is not quite accurate. In particular, the geodesics the components of the gravimeter or probe "find" are not the ones that would be generated in the model metric.
The first option is hard to do and usually leads one into numerical relativity. That's not such a bad thing these days, thanks to modern codes and supercomputers. However, it's often hard to extract intuitions from numerical solutions, and even harder to boil down into an explanation for others ("just run this code and you'll see" is not very satisfying).
The last option has been around for decades and is a bit half-way. Its advantage is that you generally can say intelligent things about what's going on far from the thin shell boundary, and can develop a good map between the evolution of the configurations of matter within the "inside" metric and that outside. Its disadvantage is that it is a painful amount of work that computers aren't very good at helping with yet.
Which one chooses will depend on some combination of the problem being studied, personal preference, and trade-offs between manual work, accuracy, and comprehensibility. One can combine the perturbation approach with the inside/outside approach, so that one has (dropping the indices) g_{outside} = \eta_{outside} + h_{outside} and g_{inside} = \eta_{inside} + h_{inside} and an Israel-Darmois junction between g_{inside} and g_{outside} which is at least in principle something one can think about functionally (a test object crossing the junction will have its momentum altered; if it just drifts across, the junction is something like a "kink" linking two otherwise smooth geodesics).
Now, back to the standard cosmology, using the "inside"/"outside" approach. In the "outside", the Robertson-Walker vacuum does just what you say:
> [as the] universe [is] empty and expanding, then some light non-interacting test dust would indeed get pulled apart everywhere and at all length scales
and then
> But when we add matter and let it collapse
... we can no longer describe the whole spacetime as a Robertson-Walker vacuum that we're simply probing. Our matter perturbs the RW metric, so the true metric g must be the combination of RW and whatever metric the introduced mass generates. Since the introduced mass is collapsing, it's probably approximately described some sort of Tolman dust. So we select e.g. the Lemaître-Tolman-Bondi metric and perturb that in turn, so g = RW + LTB + O(h) + O(h^2) + ... where h is the deviation of the matter we introduced from exact LTB, and h^n is higher-order perturbations.
This g, like any other metric, will generate a set of geodesics throughout the spacetime. If our collapsing matter was a dust, then each of the individual particles will select its own metric. Flashes of light will find their own null geodesics determined by the metric, and so forth. The results are different from Robertson-Walker, at least close to the matter that we introduced. At even fairly short distances the higher order terms in h fall into irrelevance, and at large distances h itself becomes negligible.
I want to write a bit about extended objects, but that'll have to wait until a bit later. The key feature there is that the individual components of such objects are stuck together, so they don't find their own individual geodesics. The behaviour of extended objects in curved spacetime is fun!
> may eventually reach a kind of equilibrium where the effects of the expansion and the collapsing matter cancel out locally leading to a non-expanding region
You can move the thin shell of the junction around to explore that kind of thing. Or taking a purely perturbational approach you can look for regions of spacetime where geodesics have the characteristics you want (drop down test objects near point in spacetime near a suspected "cancelling-out" region and see if the inertially-moving test objects eventually collide or separate).
How you represent what's happening there is up to you. You could use your colloquial expression, a line from the Karen Masters link or something like it, or talk about the mathematical structures. The theory underdetermines the precise mathematical expression (there are lots of exactly equivalent ways of writing it down, and lots of so close it doesn't matter approximations); the English has it even worse. :/
However, the key thing is that exact vacuum solutions stop being exact when you add matter. Matter rarely cooperates with exact non-vacuum solutions (they typically are maximally symmetric: spherical arrangements of matter of uniform density, with no multipole moments from internal motions, etc. which is far from what we see measuring Earth's or Moon's gravitational fields with e.g. GOCE and GRAIL, and solar prominences big and obvious, galaxies can be spiral, a tiny black hole orbiting a large one will induce tides on the large one, and so on.)
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[0] I'm deliberately going to avoid talking about non-geodesic trajectories through spacetime for now. May come back to that when discussing extended objects in a followup.
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ETA: I should add that the metric expansion is not really an expansion of space, but rather an extra term tacked onto the metric g. So following the perturbation notation above we could start with flat spacetime \eta and say g = \eta + {expansion} and end up with g = {expanding Robertson-Walker}.
This is quite common: the "true" background is Minkowski flat-space, and then the vacuum eternal spherically-symmetric black hole is a perturbation on that, and then there may be other perturbations. (Instead of starting with the "true" background of Schwarzschild.) This kind of thing leads to some insights about asymptotic flatness.
So for an expanding cosmos, we can start with a perfect flat non-expanding one and perturb that, expanding the metric.
(This is being really loose with terminology, but I think gets the point across reasonably. It's the metric expansion of space because there is a time parameter in the line-element of the metric; spatial distances are determined by when (coordinate-time) you are. g = \eta + f(t), where f is a function taking a time coordinate and generating a perturbation field; maybe better to write g(t) = \eta(t) + f(t) where g(t) is the metric's spatial distance functions for all events on a slice of space that where everything is at the same time coordinate t; but this dives into 3+1 spacetime splittings which is another big can of worms...).
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ETA2: the Overview section of this puts it well in a different way. (No claims about the other sections, I haven't read them yet.) https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/m/Metric...
Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
After reading the Karen Masters link and your first response a few times, I think I am starting to understand what you want to point out. If the universe were empty and expanding, then some light non-interacting test dust would indeed get pulled apart everywhere and at all length scales. But when we add matter and let it collapse, the collapsing matter kind of pulls spacetime with it as it collapses and may eventuall…
I'm not sure this is the conclusion of the part you italicized above, which I read as - space continues to expand but matter holds together (it counteracts the effects of expansion in that the matter doesn't drift apart - but that doesn't mean that space stops expanding around the object - it merely means that the object isn't slowly pulled apart by this expansion, because it is held together by forces that are stron…
Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is your support for that claim? Can you quote other sources? I can quote my sources: Here are documented two independent approaches in estimating baryonic density: one is calculations based on the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis D/H ratio and another one is the values measured by the satellites observing the SMB. Note the two decades of similar values using both approaches: https://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/education/graphi…
My source is Stacy McGaugh (the guy who wrote that page). On the same page as the original link I found this: http://www.astro.umd.edu/~ssm/mond/BBNLCDMMOND.jpg He is currently active at this blog: https://tritonstation.wordpress.com/ It looks like this doubling happened in ~2000 so it wouldnt show up in your chart.
Since 2000 many new satellite measurements were done and the values improved. As I've quoted your page Planck in 2013 ultimately made the most precise CMB measurements that most conclusively fit the "dark matter" model and provably don't fit the "MOND" model. And for that proof there were no "factor 2" corrections, as you also confirm, at least since 2000. The way you wanted to believe, and how you quoted some other parts of the same document, was that that had to be done for that 2013 proof, and it obviously haven't had. BTW the nature of the measurements, especially those made decades ago, is such that when we started with some value and then later measured something only 2 times smaller or bigger (but then all repeated measurements remain closer to one another), it's still OK. It's not the absolute values that prove this or that, it's the measured shapes that match or not the very complex calculations. And that's what happened in 2013 with Planck: what was measured for more than a decade with other satellites, and finally most precisely with Planck, shows the shape that in practice can't match the MOND predictions but nicely matches what the "dark matter" model predicts.
Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
#276Earlier quoted context omitted.
After reading the Karen Masters link and your first response a few times, I think I am starting to understand what you want to point out. If the universe were empty and expanding, then some light non-interacting test dust would indeed get pulled apart everywhere and at all length scales. But when we add matter and let it collapse, the collapsing matter kind of pulls spacetime with it as it collapses and may eventuall…
Yes, good, you've saved me some typing along these lines. (Well, in retrospect, maybe not that much :D ) In typical vacuum solutions of the Einstein Field Equations the metric is what determines the available geodesics[0]. Putting an isolated object into a vacuum solution causes it to "select" an appropriate geodesic from the ones available, and if left alone, that object will at every time be somewhere on that geode…
(2) below is also mostly for me, I think.
1. Thanks, Michael Weiss. This is essentially the same argument I'm making, only terser. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/expandin...
2. One important thing about the expansion of the universe is that people hear "expansion of space" and reasonably think space has physical properties. https://arxiv.org/abs/0707.0380 is a good rant about that, and https://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4573 is another interesting take. There's a sort of Betteridge effect going on, in that none of the authors think that the concept of expanding space is awful, but they're instead capturing the "gotchas" that befall even working relativists stray into what philosophers call manifold substantivalism. (I hope that doesn't attract house philosophers, no offence. I don't think my text is all honey!)
Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, good, you've saved me some typing along these lines. (Well, in retrospect, maybe not that much :D ) In typical vacuum solutions of the Einstein Field Equations the metric is what determines the available geodesics[0]. Putting an isolated object into a vacuum solution causes it to "select" an appropriate geodesic from the ones available, and if left alone, that object will at every time be somewhere on that geode…
A couple little things I won't turn into literal ETA3, just in case you've already been reading the long post above. :) (2) below is also mostly for me, I think. 1. Thanks, Michael Weiss. This is essentially the same argument I'm making, only terser. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/expandin... 2. One important thing about the expansion of the universe is that people hear "expansion of space" and r…
And as I am already typing, I will just add the first question I got when reading your response because I already typed it out. In the second paragraph - not counting the first sentence - you write »[...] \eta is the chosen background field, h is the perturbation field, and g is the "true" metric.« When you say »chosen«, are you only referring to the choice between signatures (1,3) and (3,1) or do you want to allow eta to be something other than the Minkowski metric there? Probably not to important overall but the first thing that I marked.
Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
My source is Stacy McGaugh (the guy who wrote that page). On the same page as the original link I found this: http://www.astro.umd.edu/~ssm/mond/BBNLCDMMOND.jpg He is currently active at this blog: https://tritonstation.wordpress.com/ It looks like this doubling happened in ~2000 so it wouldnt show up in your chart.
> It looks like this doubling happened in ~2000 so it wouldnt show up in your chart. Since 2000 many new satellite measurements were done and the values improved. As I've quoted your page Planck in 2013 ultimately made the most precise CMB measurements that most conclusively fit the "dark matter" model and provably don't fit the "MOND" model. And for that proof there were no "factor 2" corrections, as you also confir…
The point is that "suddenly" people started measuring a higher baryon density to make it fit what was required for lambda-CDM model to fit the CMB measurements. Ie, the lambda-CDM model did not pre-dict the spectrum beforehand, they had to tune it to match the data.
And see how the squares and triangles start moving upwards once the blue circles appear: http://www.astro.umd.edu/~ssm/mond/BBNLCDMMOND.jpg
Remember the oil drop experiment mentioned by Feynman in his cargo cult science talk? That is what this looks like to Mcgaugh: http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm
I have to say, it is very frustrating to discuss this since you seem to misunderstand every simple point being made, and before that has been corrected you have gone on to miss another point that needs to be addressed. We are not discussing this at a very deep level... Perhaps English is not your native language, but I am just letting you know. I hope no offense is taken.
Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
A couple little things I won't turn into literal ETA3, just in case you've already been reading the long post above. :) (2) below is also mostly for me, I think. 1. Thanks, Michael Weiss. This is essentially the same argument I'm making, only terser. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/expandin... 2. One important thing about the expansion of the universe is that people hear "expansion of space" and r…
I read your response like five minutes after you posted it as I just replied to cbzbc at that time. Thanks a lot for the effort! It's already pretty late here, so a real response will have to wait till tomorrow, but I guess I was able to get quite a few things from your responses. Especially probably somewhat related to your second point in the last comment, namely that I kind of really want to avoid the math and use…
I mean that neither nature nor theory requires one to choose Minkowski as the background spacetime, although it is the most popular choice in perturbative General Relativity.
I've been avoiding sign conventions and coordinates deliberately; I think they would be more distracting here, and of course the choices made have no physical implications.
(Using \eta without it necessarily meaning Minkowski spacetime is arguably an abuse of notation, if that's what you mean. :D)
Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
A different hand-wavy explanation. The places that an electron can be found are described by a wave pattern. If the electron is staying in place around a nucleus, that wave pattern has to be a standing wave that reinforces itself. To reinforce itself it has to wrap around the nucleus an integer number of times. This explanation doesn't just explain why it doesn't fall in, it also explains why there are discrete shell…
I'm not really interested (here) in the reality of the interaction between the electron and the nucleus. I don't think the existence of an electromagnetic field is a good argument against its own existence as argued by FabHK further up. I also don't think FabHK's argument works as an analogy to my problem with negative mass. The electromagnetic field is not self-reinforcing in the same way. Imagine that you're holdin…