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Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

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Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#251

Post by cthalupa »

codeulike wrote: post #244
cthalupa wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is called Laplace's Demon. Pretty close! Laplace's Demon also talks about seeing the past - which my hypothetical does not. Nor am I concerned with calculating the entire universe, only the portions that would effect human cognition - just that which will be observable. Much of the universe is beyond our light cone, and unless we are in the center of the universe, almost certainly the vast majority is, and none…

Lets say you have that 300 qubit quantum computer, and you only need to simulate your own light cone. Trouble is, that quantum computer is also in your light cone. So to accurately simulate your light cone, your simulation has to include itself, recursively. Hence: not going to happen.

Not if you're only attempting to prove or disprove free will and run the simulation after the fact. If you can get perfect knowledge of the starting conditions for everything in the light cone, run it, and then compare it against what actually occurred.

It might not work for telling the future, but if you limit the computation to see if it accurately models what is now history, you don't need it to simulate itself.

Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#252

Post by jwally »

coldtea wrote: post #60

> Of course, randomness isn’t the only thing necessary for free will Not only that, but randomness and determinism are equally against the (casual) idea of free will. Free will, as commonly understood, means there's an "extra layer of abstraction" between the universe (material objects and their relationships) and me. What people called "soul". It's not just that our decisions (will) are random instead of predetermin…

Why wouldn’t a soul be subject to the same cause / effect nature of the universe?

Even if the universe was run by Greek gods, it would still follow this chain of causality or be completely random. It seems like this applies to any thing you can ask “why?” of.

Interestingly enough you run into a paradox because the chain of causality had to begin some where...which begs the question “why did time begin? What triggered it?”

Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#253

Post by ganzuul »

intralizee wrote: post #245
ganzuul wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3) Person who desires it for the sake of personal accountability

I would think that is still either 1) or 2). It all comes down to the ego with accountability.

How do you figure? Seems to me ego would want no accountability at all.

Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#254

Post by intralizee »

ganzuul wrote: post #253
intralizee wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think that is still either 1) or 2). It all comes down to the ego with accountability.

How do you figure? Seems to me ego would want no accountability at all.

Ego creates accountability on both sides of the equation (ex. victim & assailant) when it comes to something undesired in society.

Ego is constructed by the person viewing what encompasses reality and comparing the self to form self-esteem or self-importance.

As a person who understands determinism, I feel my ego has diminished when it comes to individuals. I realize me comparing others who are "unfortunate or fortunate" to myself is nonsense and accountability for individuality is diminished to null. My accountability for society as a whole is instead greatly increased and where I view the complete system of what makes an individual who they are being at fault for any undesired outcome.

Basically if someone were to do a horrible act it is by fate, how they were raised in the family they were born, with genetics and all the events that happened in the specific linear order of no real control because free will does not exist. I would see everything at fault "the will of the universe" and where the best humanity can do is study what made the outcome; with working on fixing the problem and rehabilitation for the person.

Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#255

Post by joycian »

dmreedy wrote: post #135
coldtea wrote: post #60

> Of course, randomness isn’t the only thing necessary for free will Not only that, but randomness and determinism are equally against the (casual) idea of free will. Free will, as commonly understood, means there's an "extra layer of abstraction" between the universe (material objects and their relationships) and me. What people called "soul". It's not just that our decisions (will) are random instead of predetermin…

An idea that's been tickling me lately is that 'randomness', as perceived by people inside a system, is actually an avenue by which free will from some hypothetical meta-system might assert itself. The actions causally derived from randomness in our universe seem random because we inside the system have no Informational view in to the meta-system in which they have some kind of causal logic, but the decision makes se…

This is why the standard interpretation of QM to me implies that there is a higher-order universe, which seems a high price to pay (in Occam units) for an experimentally successful theory, even if it is so incredibly successful as QM.

Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#256

Post by ajuc »

coldtea wrote: post #238
cthalupa wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of free will doesn't eliminate consciousness and intelligence. We're veering into deconstructionism here. Yes, everything is largely deterministic (quantum effects have impact, and may or may not be deterministic, but that impact is still bound by the laws of physics), and the universe will someday reach maximum entropy. On the scale of the universe and its lifespan, morality obviously doesn't exist. I've be…

> The fact that it is predetermined and automatic doesn't change the causality It doesn't change the causality (and I concur to that -- as I wrote "both are events destined to do by the initial state of the universe in the big bang"), but it changes the cause of the event. The cause is not someone deciding as a free agent (picking X or Y, or able to go either way), but someone that cannot but do but X, because of eve…

> No, but you don't attribute any particular significance to a mere step in the chain, be it moral or whatever, when it was inevitable due to earlier steps.

Why? Assuming universe is deterministic we do it all the time.

Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#257

Post by ganzuul »

intralizee wrote: post #254
ganzuul wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you figure? Seems to me ego would want no accountability at all.

Ego creates accountability on both sides of the equation (ex. victim & assailant) when it comes to something undesired in society. Ego is constructed by the person viewing what encompasses reality and comparing the self to form self-esteem or self-importance. As a person who understands determinism, I feel my ego has diminished when it comes to individuals. I realize me comparing others who are "unfortunate or fortun…

Seems that you are speaking of Id rather than ego. That or your neurology is alien to me.

Not everybody is ruled by circumstance. With hard work and dedication you can begin to eliminate the factors which force your hand. For some individuals the task probably is insurmountable. For those of us lucky or unlucky enough to be able to reach a state of free will, accountability is a dubious reward.

Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#258

Post by naasking »

monkeydreams wrote: post #249
naasking wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than mainstream, it's the majority view among philosophers (59% Compatibilists, the rest even split among 3 other possibilities): https://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl

I wonder if it is mainstream because it is functional rather than because it mirrors reality. The ability to ascribe a moral weight to a choice and then punish or reward an individual for that choice, resolves issues such as nudging people toward "appropriate" behaviour, enacting some vengeance against people who do harm to others, etc. It appears to me to be a neat legal fiction but, perhaps, not the most effective…

First, I think it's important to distinguish justice from moral responsibility. Punishment and rehabilitation are about justice. Free will is about identifying who is morally responsible. So accepting free will doesn't automatically mean you can punish wrongdoers.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "mirrors reality". The debate surrounding free will is about defining the term and its properties and how it's a factor in moral responsibility. To do so, it must provide a justifiable framework for moral reasoning and our moral language to make sense of how we use the term. Compatibilism convincingly meets the necessary criteria, and that's why it's the majority view.

The holdouts are people who insist free will must have certain properties that Compatibilism probably doesn't have, but they haven't been able to argue this convincingly enough to persuade a majority.

Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#259

Post by intralizee »

ganzuul wrote: post #257
intralizee wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ego creates accountability on both sides of the equation (ex. victim & assailant) when it comes to something undesired in society. Ego is constructed by the person viewing what encompasses reality and comparing the self to form self-esteem or self-importance. As a person who understands determinism, I feel my ego has diminished when it comes to individuals. I realize me comparing others who are "unfortunate or fortun…

Seems that you are speaking of Id rather than ego. That or your neurology is alien to me. Not everybody is ruled by circumstance. With hard work and dedication you can begin to eliminate the factors which force your hand. For some individuals the task probably is insurmountable. For those of us lucky or unlucky enough to be able to reach a state of free will, accountability is a dubious reward.

I’m confused why you would think id. Everyone is ruled by circumstance “every moment” and even when the person enjoys every bit of it. A puppet that loves who controls his strings is still without free will. I’m a transgender woman for example and had an unfavorable life, almost everyday by how persons treat me by aesthetics and from my understanding of your writing “I would only be considered having free will” if achieving the impossible against reality. Except even in that case I wasn’t free for desiring the outcome, having it happen and even enjoying it. Accountability never is correct unless directed towards the complete system as a whole. Everyone is forced every moment till death.

Re: Photons, Quasars and the Possibility of Free Will

#260

Post by Fjolsvith »

simonh wrote: post #220
nardi wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be saying that only explanations that rely solely on the physical world are valid or worthwhile. But when doing philosophy, it would be hasty to say that only empirical facts are knowable.

I' not really saying anything about non-empirical facts. I'm open to the principle they might be knowable. I tend to thin they must be encoded physically in order to affect us in any way. How does a non-physical thing with no representation in the physical world have a physical effect? That aside, I'm saying that I don't see how non-physicality solves the problem of free will. In a physicalist interpretation decision…

I'm of the mind that soul involves the encoding in DNA and the magnetic fields generated and sensed by the electrical systems of the body.

When you have a group of people "gathered together" ("In my name") there surely must be a subtle but coherent magnetic field that interacts with the physical to bring about "unexplainable phenomena". Perhaps the notion of God/gods could be explained this way.

Indo-european rune technology involves subtle magnetic fields in complex shapes, and are believed to affect the physical in "non-deterministic" ways as well. [1]

1. "Runelore" by Edred Thorsson

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