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'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

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Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#211

> Air bubbles in water can be modelled as having a negative mass. Forgive the naive take on this, but it's a weird point to me... if air bubbles in water can be modelled as having negative mass, but clearly do not (they are made of particles with positive mass), then they are only "negative" in relation to the material surrounding them. So even if they can be modelled this way successfully, clearly the model doesn't…

The concept of whether something is "real" is a metaphysical amusement. And it is never meant to be answered in modern physics. Physics has come a long way into what it is today from natural philosophy. I believe all physicists in this day and age subscribe to the notion of model-dependent realism in one way or another. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-dependent_realism Perhaps someday in the distant future we w…

Or not so distant future. There has been a relative standstill in physics in spite of perhaps more 'known unknowns' than ever before. The problem with models independent of 'reality' is a lack of falsifiability. This in turn means the model itself becomes indefinitely self sustaining even when it's completely wrong as each wrong prediction is then simply massaged back into the model to artificially produce a correct answer.

For instance a recent conversation I had was discussing the big bang and the cosmic microwave background radiation. Somebody thought that the CMB was evidence of the big bang. Of course when the CMB was first observed/measured it completely falsified our idea of a big bang due to the horizon problem -- regions of space that should not be causally connected are somehow homogeneous, which should be impossible. But instead of this observation != prediction indicating some fundamental problem we instead add in a magical hyper-inflation period to the model of the big bang so that the model can now "predict" what we see. And now you have people that believe that the CMB itself is evidence of the model's accuracy, when in reality the CMB refuted our models and we were forced to massage it back into the model in a rather arbitrary fashion. There is absolutely no physical reason to accept hyper-inflation other than 'if we add this magic event, then we can keep using this model.'

For a less contemporary example consider geocentricism - the idea that everything rotated around the Earth. Prior to Newtonian mechanics and other 'real' systems of interaction, we simply used models for orbital mechanics. And these models ended up being quite rediculous. You had planets doing magical swirlies, stopping and going backwards, and all other sorts of things. But because you can't falsify models detached from reality, everybody just shrugged their shoulders and accepted it for something on the order of centuries. And as time passes these models become even more difficult to replace because it ends up meaning you'd basically have to toss something on the order of decades, if not centuries, of past work. In this particular case astrology, for instance, was in the past a scholarly and academic field analogous in many ways to psychology today. Refuting geocentricism involved completely scrapping this entire field, and centuries of work within it, due to the fact it took things such as Mercury going backwards as key components of its analysis of human psychology.

The point of this all is that as you accept models, it can be that you're searching for answers at the entire wrong level of a problem. For instance astronomers in times of a geocentric universe may have been trying to explain why Mercury went backwards during its orbit, yet it's extremely difficult to answer something when you start with a wrong assumption -- in that case that the planet does indeed go backwards at some point, planets have these orbital swirlies, and so on. People like to rewrite history to blame geocentricism on the church, but inertia is not limited to divine belief.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If inertia is resistance to change then negative inertia would be promotion of change? I really dont know, the idea of negative inertia seems wildly counterintuitive.

Inertia isn't "resistance to change". It's defined by Newton's second law, F = ma . Force and acceleration are directional vectors, and mass is scalar. In the form of the equation favored by my high school physics teacher, a = F/m , we see that when a force is exerted on an object with positive mass, the object will accelerate in the same direction as the force, in inverse proportion to its own mass. But it's very ea…

Thanks, that's obviously a much better way to think about it. However, you're wrong in at least the typical physics definition of inertia found in dictionaries is in fact, "resistance of change (velocity, acceleration, momentum)."

In that same framework, the maths definition of inertia is also momentum = mv and a google search confirms this. What would negative momentum even look like? Because that's not just movement in the opposite direction.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#213
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Paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.07962.pdf Not a physicist, but my summary of the author's point would be: If you allow for matter with a negative mass and plug it into a n-body simulation. You seem to get what looks like dark matter from first principles. Namely, a halo of non interacting matter around galaxies in just the right "non-cuspy" shape. Their conclusion is that this is worth considering, as almost all ma…

Here's an argument: If you think about it, "mass" actually means two different things. One one hand, there is mass as the "charge" of gravitational interaction, that is, the gravitational field generated by a body is proportional to its mass. Let's call this concept "gravitational mass". On the other hand, you have mass in the sense of "intertial mass", a body's resistance to change of velocity. Although we kinda tak…

I was thinking, what if body's resistance is actually the norm, even when there is no change of velocity ? But the negative mass would provide the energy to let the body's in movement ? From our point of view it seems that body's can move by theirselves and it seems also that we have to provide energy to change their velocities. But if we think the universe as a fluid, body's should be constantly slowed. It's very strange to have two distinct behavior, except if we have a negative mass in the universe.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#214
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Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Every other force besides gravity is polarised, so why not also gravity?" Gravity is mediated by a spin-2 gauge boson, the graviton, whereas the other known fundamental forces are mediated by vector (spin-1) bosons. There is an exercise in Peskin & Schroeder (I believe) working out the lack of a gravitation "repulsion" resulting from this difference. That being said, I think this kind of phenomenology is excellent a…

> raises lots of interesting questions Exactly. What I liked about MOND was that it basically amounted to "we don't know." The populist notion that dark matter is conclusively matter, and dark energy is energy seems a bold claim for such a young species. Crazy theories like non-universal constants are probably crazy, but they do explore unconventional lines of thought. One of those, most likely an unknown unknown, ma…

The Bullet Cluster seems pretty conclusive though.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that has been falsified more than once What has been falsified more than once?

Lots, we just patch it and move on. Iron orb should glow blue unless this one variable is this one value? "patch it" by calling that one value plank's constant and see, the models still good! Our math says the universe comes up short on mass by over 3/4ths? Must be invisible matter we can't see or interact with see, the models still good! Over simplification in the extreme, but also a far cry from the rock solid foun…

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Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, electrons are attracted to protons by the electromagnetic force, but they don't make it all the way there because they are repelled by some other force. You don't have a paradox because our model of the electromagnetic force doesn't specify that it's the only force there is. But if a negative mass is moving towards you and encounters a repulsive force, that repulsive force will, by definition, move the negative m…

> that repulsive force will, by definition, move the negative mass further toward you. only if the repulsive force is negative gravity. If a positive-mass electron attracts a negative-mass electron, the repulsive electromagnetic force will still keep them from making it all the way there.

>> that repulsive force will, by definition, move the negative mass further toward you.

> only if the repulsive force is negative gravity

We're talking about negative inertial mass, not negative gravitational mass. Negative inertial mass means accelerating against the direction of any force applied to you, including but not limited to gravity.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#217
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Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dark matter can be placed arbitrarily so it can match pretty much anything. Quite the opposite, and that statement is obviously uninformed. The science behind dark matter is very precise and exact. That's why the alternative theories can't come even near: once the same rigor which was applied to test dark matter is applied to the alternatives, the alternative theories simply break. > I'm afraid I have never seen th…

> "Quite the opposite, and that statement is obviously uninformed. The science behind dark matter is very precise and exact." From what I have seen they can get precise post-dictions but not precise pre-dictions because there are so many free parameters (basically you can put dark matter wherever you need it). > "I've given you the link to the complete articles and also highlighted the major points. Try to read and u…

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Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inertia isn't "resistance to change". It's defined by Newton's second law, F = ma . Force and acceleration are directional vectors, and mass is scalar. In the form of the equation favored by my high school physics teacher, a = F/m , we see that when a force is exerted on an object with positive mass, the object will accelerate in the same direction as the force, in inverse proportion to its own mass. But it's very ea…

Thanks, that's obviously a much better way to think about it. However, you're wrong in at least the typical physics definition of inertia found in dictionaries is in fact, "resistance of change (velocity, acceleration, momentum)." In that same framework, the maths definition of inertia is also momentum = mv and a google search confirms this. What would negative momentum even look like? Because that's not just movemen…

Velocity, the v in the definition of momentum, is also a vector, so yes negative momentum is just momentum in the opposite direction from positive momentum, whatever direction that may be.

Inertia is generally not defined as being momentum, because an object's momentum in any direction increases along with its velocity in that direction, while we like to think of inertia as being determined solely by mass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia begins "Inertia is the resistance, of any physical object, to any change in its velocity". That's specifically resistance to acceleration ("change in velocity"), not resistance to the concept of change in general.

(It does go on: "In common usage, the term "inertia" may refer to an object's "amount of resistance to change in velocity" (which is quantified by its mass), or sometimes to its momentum, depending on the context.")

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#219
post #39
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Every other force besides gravity is polarised, so why not also gravity?" Gravity is mediated by a spin-2 gauge boson, the graviton, whereas the other known fundamental forces are mediated by vector (spin-1) bosons. There is an exercise in Peskin & Schroeder (I believe) working out the lack of a gravitation "repulsion" resulting from this difference. That being said, I think this kind of phenomenology is excellent a…

The definitions you brought are tailored to what is our best understanding of the universe. Nobody ever said that these are immutable. Newtonian physics also must have felt rock solid, time and time again explaining new phenomena until it did not and there came about a better explanation.

Sidenote, but I think it is very important to emphasize that Newtonian physics is actually still quite rock-solid under certain conditions. These conditions are actually quite common and useful for humans. Many engineers utilize Newtonian physics everyday.

Re: 'Dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe

#220
Neither an experimental physicist nor cosmologist, but another possibility is that our universe shares very slight space-time interactions with other universe(s) in a multiverse where its mass-energy casts negative mass "shadows" in ours. Blackholes in one creates areas of repulsion and expansion in the other. Maybe this is where the missing mass-energy is? It's there, but it's not in our universe.
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