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Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

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Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#371

Post by exabrial »

nkurz wrote: post #44
exabrial wrote: post #40

Can someone explain to me how keeping your keyfob in a faraday bag is supposed to increase security?

From the linked article: Relay thefts According to Bates, many of these thieves are using a method called "relay theft." Key fobs are constantly broadcasting a signal that communicates with a specific vehicle, he said, and when it comes into a close enough range, the vehicle will open and start. "The way that the thieves are getting around this is they're essentially amplifying that low power signal coming off of the…

Have a link? I'm familiar with rolling code systems, but this continuous transmission is new to me

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#372

Post by analog31 »

xenihn wrote: post #331

This seems like as good a HN thread as any to ask this, since I've been looking into it recently. What are some cars to look into if I'm interested in the following things? Or what are some cars that I should specifically avoid? - Low appeal to thieves interested in stealing the vehicle itself, due to the hardware (locks and whatever else) being exceptionally difficult to deal with - Some sort of secure/hidden compar…

When I was a grad student, my parking permit put me in the law school parking lot. Problem solved.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#373

Post by tyingq »

caf wrote: post #354
bacon_waffle wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you could do that without killing the battery, then it wouldn't provide a benefit for people like me who keep their keys in their pocket. My personal solution is to not drive often, and when I do it's a 1996 Subaru. ;)

I think it would pretty easily differentiate between "keys in your pocket" and "keys sitting on bedside table for several hours" .

Apparently so: https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/transportatio...

But, he may be saying he's vulnerable for long periods because the idle timer won't kick in for him.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#374

Post by DBNO »

starbeast wrote: post #335
nkrisc wrote: post #105

I imagine improvements to the key fob could be made that would require a mechanical coupling with the car in order to start it. That would circumvent this attack.

Lock receives signal from Key, writes down time and picks a random key and uses these to create a ciphertext, encrypts that with the public key of Key to create a second ciphertext and sends. Key receives message, decrypts with private key to first ciphertext and encrypts that with the public key of Lock and sends back. Lock decrypts message with private key and earlier random key, compares to current time and if it…

This is basically the solution. Light travels about 1 foot in one nanosecond, so the car needs to reject latent replies.

I did research in this area a few years ago. Here's a research paper [1] from 1993 that goes into more detail about this type of "distance bounding" solution (i.e. authenticating received signal only if 1) it is received within a few nanoseconds AND 2) the decrypted received signal contains the previously sent random number) in order to defend against "relay attacks". The paper discloses many variations to this general solution as well.

[1] Brands and Chaum, "Distance-Bounding Protocols"

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-48285-7_30

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#375

Post by Cd00d »

jjeaff wrote: post #275
Scoundreller wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BMW late 2000s were like this. Maybe still are.

I have a 2007 BMW. It does have a slot to insert the fob. But it is not required to start or run the car. The slot acts as a charger and holder for the fob. But proximity is all that is actually needed.

I had a 2011 3-series that required the fob to go into the slot to power or start the car.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#376

Post by godelski »

ams6110 wrote: post #353
jamescostian wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unlocks based on the fob's proximity Unfortunately, that would be vulnerable to theives unlocking your car and taking everything in it. For me, the biggest convenience of fobs is the ability to start the car and have AC on so that the car isn't burning/freezing when I get to it

I never like to have the car running when I'm not in it. If it's low on oil, or overheating, etc there's nobody watching the gauges.

Do you have an old car or are you a pilot?

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#377

Post by rb808 »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #369

IoT security FTW! Glad I have a key. Easy fix: a thing called a "button" that you press before it broadcasts the private key. Even better, also broadcast a different key each minute, like GA

The S in IoT stands for security.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#378

Post by BearsAreCool »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #327
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does she unlock her front door?

> How does she unlock her front door? For many people, there's no need to unlock the front door because it's never locked. Having to lock your door just means you're living in a terrible neighborhood.

Not sure about the US, but in the UK where I have more experience having my stuff stolen, if you rob a house and the door is locked it is a far more serious crime than if the door is unlocked. Big reason people made sure to lock their doors in my neighbourhood growing up since 90% of the yobs would just check if doors were locked, not actually dare to break in.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#379

Post by enobrev »

Swizec wrote: post #260
nkrisc wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I was making a joke, but I was also semi-serious. I personally wouldn't mind that the car unlocks based on the fob's proximity, but requires insertion of the key for ignition. I currently drive a 2009 car with the usual key fob and my biggest issue with it is not having to insert it to start the car, but unlocking the doors while my hands are full. Once I'm seated in the driver's seat I'm not carrying anything a…

My problem with modern cars is that there’s no good place to put the keys. They’re uncomfy in my pocket when sitting down and I’m too warm for a jacket with pockets. The old ignition hole was the perfect solution. You had a dedicated spot for your keys, you always knew where they are, were unlikely to forget them in the car, and it also happened to start your engine. Perfect

I use a caribiner and a belt loop. I think a bracelet would be a pretty great form factor for a key fob.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#380

Post by H1Supreme »

rootusrootus wrote: post #252
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does she unlock her front door?

I imagine a lot of people don't use a key to get in their house, nor do they use the front door. Hit the button on the garage door remote, drive in, walk into house.

I got a notice in the mail from our county's assessor because they left three door tags at my house. I almost never open the front door. I go in and out of the garage, and let my cat out the back.
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