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Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

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Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#111

Post by jammygit »

windexh8er wrote: post #93
JackC wrote: post #28

I'm really excited about this idea, but I also think it isn't fully baked yet. I'm excited because VPNs are all about shifting trust: I'm no longer trusting Comcast not to sell my data, I'm now trusting SketchyVPN. If SketchyVPN turns out not to be trustworthy, then I'm paying for something that is worth less than $0 to me, and there's no way to detect that as a user. It's like paying more for organic food in a town…

I've been toying around with ProtonMail premium service, so this isn't a direct reflection on ProtonVPN the product. However ProtonMail's support is abysmal. For me that hasn't been a direct reflection of the product, however getting anyone from ProtonMail to engage in a cognizant support conversation is next to impossible and takes days to get an answer. They don't seem to treat paying customers any different than t…

Personally, I never had to use their support. I was lucky enough that everything worked well the whole time. Only reason I switched away was that I wanted a calendar too (using fastmail now)

Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#112

Post by jammygit »

nmy wrote: post #31
gpm wrote: post #16

I only use firefox. But I don't feel like I can strongly recommend it because of the long list of bad decisions. - Google analytics baked into about:addons - Sending data to Cliqz - Pocket, as a service being added to the topbar - Pocket, as a service being added to the default home/newtab page - Firefox hello - Completely banning unsigned addons - Mr. Robot advert - And now probably this I want a browser that is rel…

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These are minor things compared to having no other good choice but the Google browser.

I suppose someone should mention Brave is an alright choice. If it had mobile sync working, I might be using it (Firefox currently)

Edit: just checked and their android version doesn't seem to have implemented password manager support yet. I'm excited for when they do, but its disappointing.

Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#113

Post by jammygit »

octosphere wrote: post #71
gpm wrote: post #16

I only use firefox. But I don't feel like I can strongly recommend it because of the long list of bad decisions. - Google analytics baked into about:addons - Sending data to Cliqz - Pocket, as a service being added to the topbar - Pocket, as a service being added to the default home/newtab page - Firefox hello - Completely banning unsigned addons - Mr. Robot advert - And now probably this I want a browser that is rel…

You missed a few things: - They have telemetry turned as the default - They are experimenting with TLS over HTTPS and use beloved Cloudflare to handle every DNS request - They are always in the headlines about some shady 'addon' or 'extension' been sold off and taken over by shady actors - The TorBundle which is a fork of FF ESR is always in the headlines as been unsecure and way behind FF mainline release

Could you elaborate about the tor browser?

Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#114

Post by Digital-Citizen »

JackC wrote: post #28

I'm really excited about this idea, but I also think it isn't fully baked yet. I'm excited because VPNs are all about shifting trust: I'm no longer trusting Comcast not to sell my data, I'm now trusting SketchyVPN. If SketchyVPN turns out not to be trustworthy, then I'm paying for something that is worth less than $0 to me, and there's no way to detect that as a user. It's like paying more for organic food in a town…

How did you reach the conclusion that you had to trust ProtonVPN?

> For VPN service, I trust Mozilla more than to just about anybody: they're nonprofit, have clear and transparent governance, have many mission-driven employees, and would lose more than they could possibly gain by breaking the terms of service on a VPN.

It seems to me that none of these are reasons to trust either Mozilla or ProtonVPN. The reason to trust Firefox is that it is free software (free as in freedom to run, inspect, share, and modify). If you don't like what Firefox is doing, you have the permission you need to change your copy, or hire someone to vet and/or change the copy you run, and you can help others by distributing your improved version. The seeds of coming to trust Firefox are in its software freedom, not in any public relations effort or perception about Mozilla's employees.

So there's nothing about Firefox that compels you to trust or use ProtonVPN. The limits of how trustworthy you want to make Firefox are up to you individually and other Firefox hackers collectively.

Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#115

Post by Digital-Citizen »

gpm wrote: post #16

I only use firefox. But I don't feel like I can strongly recommend it because of the long list of bad decisions. - Google analytics baked into about:addons - Sending data to Cliqz - Pocket, as a service being added to the topbar - Pocket, as a service being added to the default home/newtab page - Firefox hello - Completely banning unsigned addons - Mr. Robot advert - And now probably this I want a browser that is rel…

> I want a browser that is reliable, high quality, respects my privacy, and nothing else. I don't want addons baked into it. I don't want to be spied on.

I recommend that you look into what you're getting with software freedom -- the single most important aspect that makes Firefox different from Google Chrome, Microsoft's web browsers, Opera, or Apple Safari. All of the items on your list can be changed by using your software freedom. And this doesn't have to involve you learning to program (though that wouldn't be a bad idea). It could involve you asking programmers nicely to help you out, or hiring programmers to improve Firefox to be what you think it should be, or getting funds together with others who share your views to collectively fund programmers who work on your shared goals.

As it stands your desire reads selfishly because it is indistinguishable from you saying that you want programmers to develop a free software (free as in freedom to run, inspect, share, and modify) web browser you trust without you doing anything to help vet its trustworthiness or modify the software until it becomes software you trust. We don't have to settle for doing nothing; software freedom lets us have as much control over free software as we wish to have. The limits are on us to make things better.

Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#116

Post by windexh8er »

jammygit wrote: post #111
windexh8er wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been toying around with ProtonMail premium service, so this isn't a direct reflection on ProtonVPN the product. However ProtonMail's support is abysmal. For me that hasn't been a direct reflection of the product, however getting anyone from ProtonMail to engage in a cognizant support conversation is next to impossible and takes days to get an answer. They don't seem to treat paying customers any different than t…

Personally, I never had to use their support. I was lucky enough that everything worked well the whole time. Only reason I switched away was that I wanted a calendar too (using fastmail now)

I was/am contemplating ProtonMail from Fastmail. I've been using it for a couple years now and it's been awesome. I was hoping to gain additional security with ProtonMail but maintain the flexibility I need with multiple accounts and shared addresses that Fastmail does very well.

Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#117

Post by gpm »

Digital-Citizen wrote: post #115
gpm wrote: post #16

I only use firefox. But I don't feel like I can strongly recommend it because of the long list of bad decisions. - Google analytics baked into about:addons - Sending data to Cliqz - Pocket, as a service being added to the topbar - Pocket, as a service being added to the default home/newtab page - Firefox hello - Completely banning unsigned addons - Mr. Robot advert - And now probably this I want a browser that is rel…

> I want a browser that is reliable, high quality, respects my privacy, and nothing else. I don't want addons baked into it. I don't want to be spied on. I recommend that you look into what you're getting with software freedom -- the single most important aspect that makes Firefox different from Google Chrome, Microsoft's web browsers, Opera, or Apple Safari. All of the items on your list can be changed by using your…

I know how to program. I've contributed to Mozilla projects. Including minor contributions to components of Firefox.

I do not have the time or the money to personally develop a secure web browser for the rest of the world, nor does any other individual. Your demand is unreasonable.

Moreover, I'm not demanding that Mozilla do something. I'm explaining what would have to change for me to be able to promote Firefox and contribute to reversing the declining market share. Short of not breaking the law I make no claims that Mozilla must do anything.

PS. Chromium is also free software. The difference is how Mozilla develops it's free software.

Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#118

Post by AndrewConn »

Kaveren wrote: post #105
AndrewConn wrote: post #50

I started using ProtonVPN in the last few weeks. If you run Little Snitch, you can see they're sending data to Google Crashlytics. Doesn't inspire confidence. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t5ciujv55g7l2dj/ProtonVPN-Google-C...

They confirmed this [0]. I don't like it, but I don't think it's the worst thing in the world if there's no user data being sent. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/a0qiuu/protonvpn...

Good to know - thanks! As a privacy company, it seems like a very odd decision by the ProtonVPN product team to use a Google service in the first place and have their brand anywhere close to Google... a company that is the exact opposite of privacy. Regardless, definitely glad they're fixing it.

Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#119

Post by raw_creations »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #56
craftyguy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Icecat[0] might be the closest thing to what you are looking for. It's part of the GNU project. 0. https://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/

No binary releases for Windows. :(

38.8.0 was the last one. https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gnuzilla/38.8.0/

Re: Firefox partners with ProtonVPN

#120

Post by danShumway »

JackC wrote: post #28

I'm really excited about this idea, but I also think it isn't fully baked yet. I'm excited because VPNs are all about shifting trust: I'm no longer trusting Comcast not to sell my data, I'm now trusting SketchyVPN. If SketchyVPN turns out not to be trustworthy, then I'm paying for something that is worth less than $0 to me, and there's no way to detect that as a user. It's like paying more for organic food in a town…

> I'm excited because VPNs are all about shifting trust

I agree overall about the benefits of getting more reliable auditing for VPNs, I think that's important and I'd like to see Mozilla release more details.

But I strongly disagree with the "shifting trust" explanation that people use when they talk about VPNs. People bring up this point all the time, that if you can't guarantee trustworthiness, there's no benefit. And it's ridiculous -- even a moderately trustworthy VPN is a benefit over not using a VPN.

VPNs consolidate trust. When you don't use a VPN, you aren't just showing your traffic to your ISP. You're also leaking your IP address to any website you visit. You're also trusting any other networks that you connect to when you open up your laptop in a coffee shop or hotel room not to have a sniffer sitting on them. You're trusting tons of faceless organizations across the entire chain of you to the website you visit to be safe with your data.

The main benefit of a VPN is not just that it hides your data from your ISP (although that alone is a really good benefit because we already know that most US ISPs are untrustworthy). The main benefit is that you only need to trust one company with your IP address instead of every single individual website that you visit, and that you only need to trust one provider not to sniff your traffic, instead of every single ISP that you connect to.

If your VPN is moderately trustworthy, to the same level that you would trust an ISP like Verizon, then it is a strict upgrade in security to use that VPN for all of your traffic, because you're eliminating some of the lowest-hanging network vulnerabilities while you travel and putting a barrier between yourself and the websites you visit so that it's at least slightly harder for them to track you or tie you to a physical location.

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