Expecting in couple months, there would be an American executive's nationally televised confession and contrition.
Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
161–170 of 659 posts
Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
When you do business in another country, you are subject to its laws. You can choose to not worry about other countries laws very easily: do not do any business there.
I have no idea about details of Huawei situation, but if your product ends up in given country do you do business there? How about providing a website and not filtering users by country? In most countries laws are created faster than citizens can learn them even if they would put a lot of effort into that. In many cases those who vote them haven't even read them in detail. There is no single person on the planet who…
In this particular case, it was that Huawei was purchasing US-made products to which sanctions applied and exporting them to Iran.
I highly doubt that Huawei executives were unaware that this was against US policy and law; they just thought that the US would only punish the corporation and not the people involved, without realizing that the arm of US law extends to a whole web of countries that have extradition treaties with it.
See also the German VW executives who are very restricted in where they can travel to based on their crimes in the diesel emissions scandal.
Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
#163Can somebody explain to me on what authority the US can request the arrest of a Chinese national on Canadian soil for any action they took while conducting operations of a Chinese organization headquartered in China?
What I would like to know is how deals like this go down? Like does the US have some sort of agreement/incentive with Canada for them to spend their own effort on this? The US calling Canada on the phone and asking them to arrest someone they want seems too.. easy? I imagine there's a limit where goodwill only gets you so far, and then some sort of compensation is expected. Maybe there's a lot of backdoor Gov2Gov mon…
It's a treaty, and there is a formal procedure for submitting extradition requests. For example, here is an article from the US DoJ article on requests for extradition from the US [https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-612-role...]:
> All extradition treaties currently in force require foreign requests for extradition to be submitted through diplomatic channels, usually from the country's embassy in Washington to the Department of State. Many treaties also require that requests for provisional arrest be submitted through diplomatic channels, although some permit provisional arrest requests to be sent directly to the Department of Justice. The Department of State reviews foreign extradition demands to identify any potential foreign policy problems and to ensure that there is a treaty in force between the United States and the country making the request, that the crime or crimes are extraditable offenses, and that the supporting documents are properly certified in accordance with 18 U.S.C. § 3190. If the request is in proper order, an attorney in the State Department's Office of the Legal Adviser prepares a certificate attesting to the existence of the treaty, etc., and forwards it with the original request to the Office of International Affairs.
For the Canadian version, see https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/emla-eej/tocan-aucan.htm...:
"""
There are three key stages to the Canadian extradition process:
The Minister of Justice must determine whether to authorize the commencement of extradition proceedings in the Canadian courts by issuing an “Authority to Proceed” ; Where an Authority to Proceed has been issued, the Canadian courts must determine whether there is sufficient evidence to justify the person’s committal for extradition; and Where the person is committed for extradition, the Minister of Justice must personally decide whether to order the person’s surrender to the foreign state. A person sought for extradition may appeal their committal and seek judicial review of the Minister’s surrender order.
In all cases, the conduct for which extradition is sought must be considered criminal in both the requesting country and in Canada. This is known as “dual criminality”.
Central Authorities from outside Canada are encouraged to contact the IAG to determine what is required to make an extradition request to Canada, including the evidentiary requirements, and whether provisional arrest is appropriate in a given situation.
"""
Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
#164Is she herself accused of breaking the Iran sanctions or is it Huawei, and as the CFO she's being held accountable? I can't tell from this article or the one from NYT. And it seems like that would be a big difference, and if it was Huawai then the US should just level sanctions against Huawai rather than arresting its executives on criminal charges.
Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
#165I would not look forward to being an American businessman abroad in China right now. I think we're all used to the fiction that we live in a world that's totally governed by fairness and laws. That's been a pretty useful fiction for a long time, and in (some) of the developed world that's basically been how it's worked. But I really wonder how many shocks this system can take. I would bet money that an important US e…
"It doesn't really matter what the law says "
Though there's a lot of realpolitik, it actually does matter what the laws say as well.
Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that it was a USAF drone project which he hired them for seems salient, no?
Maybe! Probably he should have known better, but that's beside the point. One can end up in jail by simply hiring nationals from sanctioned countries. This case is more clearcut in comparison. She was actually involved in exporting American technology to Iran.
Hmm. You keep forgetting the important bit. Let me help you out again.
"One can end up in jail by simply hiring nationals from sanctioned countries and then giving them access to documents pertaining to US military technology."
This doesn't just happen to any random employer or any random professor. It happens when you are working for the DoD and you do something you shouldn't. If you don't want to run afoul of such laws, be better informed or don't take government contracts.
Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I think we're all used to the fiction that we live in a world that's totally governed by fairness and laws." Why are you so sure that this CFO did not break US trade law with regards to Iran? Let's bring it to a trial, that would be the fair thing, and that's what is taking place.
I mostly agree with you, but this isn't exactly a case where the CFO can expect to be tried by a jury of their peers. Enforcing international law (or laws with international scope) in a single country that isn't one's own is a little problematic.
“Jury of [your] peers” is not a phrase that has legal significance in the US. The sixth amendment requires “an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed“.[0]
The indicting US Attorney will be have to show that some element of an alleged crime took place within the United States.
[0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment
Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seriously. It's this fiction that makes me believe that, despite it's flaws, America (along with other democratic countries) is a beacon compared to the rest of the world. A country locking up a foreigner for breaking their laws is so different than a country locking up said foreigner out of retaliation, which is what I imagine China will end up doing.
> A country locking up a foreigner for breaking their laws It is absolutely crazy to think that US law should apply worldwide. The article does not even mention if Wanzhou Meng is US citizen who broke US law in the US. This case might be retaliation and fear mongering similar to the case of Julian Assange which is pure retaliation and fear mongering.
While the US won’t prosecute you for stealing in, say, Argentina, there are laws on the books that prohibit all citizens from doing business with certain nations, period.
They’re calling them US sanctions but the UN has also imposed sanctions on Iran. That may explain why Canada arested him. One signatory picking up a person on behalf of a more motivated one.
Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
#169I would not look forward to being an American businessman abroad in China right now. I think we're all used to the fiction that we live in a world that's totally governed by fairness and laws. That's been a pretty useful fiction for a long time, and in (some) of the developed world that's basically been how it's worked. But I really wonder how many shocks this system can take. I would bet money that an important US e…
I think that other countries should improve their cooperation and arrest Western citizens breaking their laws. So that Western citizens and companies that break Chinese, Russian or Iranian laws and violate their trading sanctions, cannot evade a fair trial.
It is annoying to read news like this. US is not a world's police. They should not be telling foreign citizens with whom they should or shouldn't trade.
Re: Canada has arrested Huawei’s global chief financial officer in Vancouver
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe! Probably he should have known better, but that's beside the point. One can end up in jail by simply hiring nationals from sanctioned countries. This case is more clearcut in comparison. She was actually involved in exporting American technology to Iran.
"Exporting" technology for these sorts of legal purposes can be as simple as allowing a foreign national to see a document in passing. Punishment can range from "good job admitting it promptly" to decades in prison.
The allegations surrounding Huawei are much more substantial than that - the export of equipment for building serious internet infrastructure. An example of past allegations:
> Meng isn't a stranger to issues with sanctions. In 2013, Reuters found that Meng served on the board of Skycom Tech, a company that offered to sell HP equipment to Iran in late 2010 with Huawei's apparent blessing -- 13 pages of the proposal were marked as "Huawei confidential." The deal reportedly never went through, but it could have landed at least Huawei and Skycom in trouble. It's unclear if the arrest has a connection to the 2010 sale or is based solely on separate allegations.
If a deal like that went through, that's a pretty intuitive and straightforward violation of sanctions.