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Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

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Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#31

> But the history of these covenants suggests that there’s a strong economic case for banning them entirely This is an example of starting to make a good point and carrying to an extreme that makes it unreasonable. Non-competes exist for a reason, and saying they need to be deleted is a silly argument. "This common business practice could use modification" generates less clicks, I suppose.

What, to your mind, are good reasons for non-competes? To me it just looks like rent-seeking. Do you see any negative consequences in states that have banned them almost entirely, such as California?

In some cases an employee might be able to build up a base of loyal customers more easily with a larger firm than they could alone, leave and take much of that business with them, and enjoy the continued productivity with much higher margins. The resources of the larger firm then become a stepping stone to the loss of their own business.

I know of one case (in which I am actually mostly sympathetic to the individual bound by the non-compete) in which that's actually exactly what happened.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#32
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terms become unenforceable when it's recognized by the courts that one party has so much negotiating power that true negotiations are impossible. A software engineer in the middle of SV might be able to demand $100k to sign a noncompete, but who else?

A candidate demanding another $100k on top of a fair offer, whether to sign a non-compete or for any other reason, is not going to get the offer. There's a myth that SV engineers can demand whatever they want and get it. No, they can't. If I get an offer for $200k, and that's actually my market value, and I demand another $100k for any reason whatsoever - I won't get them, period. NCAs aren't legal in California, but…

It's interesting that you use the pejorative "smartass" and imply the demand is unreasonable. This couldn't be a clearer example of the low social status engineers have.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#34
post #17

Q: I'm willing to pay you $100,000 to sign a non-compete to work on the project with my company. If I don't pay, the non-compete isn't valid. Okay? A: No. Q: $500,000? A: No. Q: $1m? A: No. Q: $10m? A: Yes. The point being... the problem is NOT non-competes. The problem is the exchange of value. They serve a useful purpose in support of business risk-taking and investment. Make them fair, not unenforceable.

> Make them fair, not unenforceable.

Nice idea. How do you do that in practice?

How does the judicial system decide what NCA is "fair"?

The cost of the NCA to the employee can be heavy. How do you "fairly" value it?

In reality you'll get what you have right now, where entire industries (and certainly entire companies) simply mandate NCAs in all their contracts and there's no way to remove it or get compensated for it. Don't like it? Decline the offer. Oh, and good luck getting an offer that doesn't require it - they all do.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#35
I think you could sort of argue that non-compete agreements are a sort of price-control in favor of companies that write add them into their employment contracts. These companies are effectively trying to both lower the costs of their hiring, and make it cheaper for themselves to compete against their competitors.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#36
post #32
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A candidate demanding another $100k on top of a fair offer, whether to sign a non-compete or for any other reason, is not going to get the offer. There's a myth that SV engineers can demand whatever they want and get it. No, they can't. If I get an offer for $200k, and that's actually my market value, and I demand another $100k for any reason whatsoever - I won't get them, period. NCAs aren't legal in California, but…

It's interesting that you use the pejorative "smartass" and imply the demand is unreasonable. This couldn't be a clearer example of the low social status engineers have.

I'm actually an engineer :-)

I used "smartass" because it's a move that superficially seems clever, but is actually completely futile when you look at the broad picture - as my comment shows.

I don't know if us engineers have "low social status", but we certainly don't have as much negotiating power as some of us may fancy, certainly not against a huge mega-corporation.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#37
post #34
post #17

Q: I'm willing to pay you $100,000 to sign a non-compete to work on the project with my company. If I don't pay, the non-compete isn't valid. Okay? A: No. Q: $500,000? A: No. Q: $1m? A: No. Q: $10m? A: Yes. The point being... the problem is NOT non-competes. The problem is the exchange of value. They serve a useful purpose in support of business risk-taking and investment. Make them fair, not unenforceable.

> Make them fair, not unenforceable. Nice idea. How do you do that in practice? How does the judicial system decide what NCA is "fair"? The cost of the NCA to the employee can be heavy. How do you "fairly" value it? In reality you'll get what you have right now, where entire industries (and certainly entire companies) simply mandate NCAs in all their contracts and there's no way to remove it or get compensated for it…

Full pay for the length of the non-compete + insurance to cover the company going insolvent. Otherwise it's illegal to even put it in the contract

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#38
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Make them fair, not unenforceable. Nice idea. How do you do that in practice? How does the judicial system decide what NCA is "fair"? The cost of the NCA to the employee can be heavy. How do you "fairly" value it? In reality you'll get what you have right now, where entire industries (and certainly entire companies) simply mandate NCAs in all their contracts and there's no way to remove it or get compensated for it…

Full pay for the length of the non-compete + insurance to cover the company going insolvent. Otherwise it's illegal to even put it in the contract

Not a bad attempt, but what's "full pay"? For most senior engineers, the base salary is just a part of the compensation package. What about bonus?

Also, most employees move for a better opportunity, which often means a much better base comp + potential for much higher bonus. If I'm not going to be compensated for that, how is that "fair"?

Finally, my resume and likely my skillset will take a hit for sitting 1-2 years at home. Where's the compensation for that?

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#39

I would love to see a spoof where a middle age serf is going to move to a new farm, but his current lord forces him to sign a contract which precludes the serf from using his wheat farming skills for the new lord who is the current lords political competition.

nice try but serves were attached to the land by nature.

Re: Send Noncompete Agreements Back to the Middle Ages

#40

> But the history of these covenants suggests that there’s a strong economic case for banning them entirely This is an example of starting to make a good point and carrying to an extreme that makes it unreasonable. Non-competes exist for a reason, and saying they need to be deleted is a silly argument. "This common business practice could use modification" generates less clicks, I suppose.

Non-competes are an asymmetric, negative externality imposed by employers on to employees.

Employers like it because it decreases employee job liquidity and thus brings down the price of hiring for almost nothing.

It's like not charging factories for the polluting smog they create as it floats over your house, but in this case, it's the general economy.

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