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Facebook's seized files published by MPs

bbc.co.uk

361–370 of 507 posts

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#361
Here's Zuckerberg's response in which he "shares some more context around the decisions we made": https://www.facebook.com/zuck/posts/10105559172610321

Quick textual analysis: in a pithy 623-word statement, Zuck manages to mention "shady", "sketchy" or "abusive apps" no less than 7 times. 8 times, if you include the time he mentioned Cambridge Analytica without using a sketchy adjective.

Notice the spin as Facebook the White Knight protecting the public from the evils of sketchy apps. Unclear how this will play out given public losing trust in Facebook itself.

[Reference]

1. "some developers built shady apps that abused people's data"

2. "to prevent abusive apps"

3. "a lot of sketchy apps -- like the quiz app that sold data to Cambridge Analytica"

4. "Some of the developers whose sketchy apps were kicked off our platform sued us"

5. "we were focusing on preventing abusive apps"

6. "mentioned above that we blocked a lot of sketchy apps"

7. "We've focused on preventing abusive apps for years"

8. "this was the change required to prevent the situation with Cambridge Analytica"

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At this point, I don't even feel obligated to remember it all -- I can trust myself enough. We do that with "evil" people in our lives, too. We don't remember every dirty detail. We remember that there were a bunch of things, and that overall, we had it at some point. I save the conclusion and the checksums and that's enough. > If you think I'm operating on a premise, instead of having come to a conclusion, how is…

> Also consider that you have seen eleven years of data points and experiences from the point of view of a small subset of users; there could perhaps be an equivalent cache of positive datapoints which tend to be significantly less interesting to report on. You know what a thief can be like? 99.99% of the time, they don't steal. They sleep, they brush their teeth, they do all sorts of stuff, and every 2 weeks they ta…

> You can't speak for that other person. Let them respond for themselves.

Sounds like you're more interested in competing with someone than talking about ideas.

> Would you really care about any positive stories after seeing what you saw?

...yes? Of course? I don't automatically dehumanize that hypothetical person for their deeds, whether I approve or not, or believe there should be consequences. Like, doesn't Facebook collaborate with law enforcement in tracking down predators and scammers and the like? It's not as simple as "bad. go away."

You should remember enough to make a proper argument, dude. A solid conclusion needs solid support.

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#363
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vindictive government raiding What? OP literally just described how skipping a request for info is comparable to skipping a court summons in the US. If you skip a court summons 4 times, the government comes after you. How is this situation different? > publishing This certainly does raise questions. > government's ideals Investigating companies who might be implicit in crimes? (Gov is investigatng fake news, most o…

Why leave off the part of the quote that said "and publishing"? I assume an accident, buf if you include that in the quote, you will understand how the situation is different. The concern about ideals is how they chose the target and what they are doing with the documents. So many people naively get caught up in the overarching issue of guilt that they are eager to overlook improprieties by the investigators.

Good point, I edited my comment.

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the museum waived the entry fees for users that opted into a having their info tracked and the data monetized there are probably people who would prefer to compensate the museum that way. It'd probably open up access to the museum to poorer people that couldn't afford the ticket. Heck, I'd probably do it. My contact info has almost certainly been collected already, so for me it's basically instant savings. Your ma…

That might be the average price Economist readers would pay. I suspect it would be a lot lower for most users. That aside - FB never gave users that choice. Where many media services - including AOL, streaming media companies, and newspapers (and the Economist) survive by charging a subscription, FB has never attempted to use that business model. Why? Because FB has always been a data harvesting and user monitoring/p…

Facebook probably would charge users directly if it were acceptable to do so. Unfortunately (in my opinion) the optics around providing that choice would be even worse than not providing that choice at all. People would portray this as akin to racketeering, making users cough up the dough if they don't want to be tracked. Ironically, concern over Facebook's data collection inhibits their ability to explore direct monetization methods.

Also, the value of this information isn't secret: Google and Facebook are public companies and publish their revenue numbers, no? It's not hard to divide by the number of active users to get an average value per user.

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#365
post #214

It’s terrifying that people want to use the government to regulate a free website that nobody even has to use and which has not actually caused anyone harm. GDPR tyrants: get a life and stop using Facebook. Seriously.

> which has not actually caused anyone harm. This is not a statement you can just throw out there. For example https://www.wired.com/story/how-facebooks-rise-fueled-chaos-...

The genocide in Myanmar was awful. Like Cambodia or Rwanda awful. And Facebook had a role in it.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/03/673022562/u-s-investigators-c...

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nice spin on it, but Facebook is still a bad actor (despite what you say). This needs to be a conclusion, not a premise. I do not have a firm belief about whether or not this is true, but I keep seeing people list bad things about FB and draw a straight line to “thus it is evil”. Ideally, we would list the good/bad it does and assign weights to these points to determine if it is net harmful. I want to be convinced,…

> This needs to be a conclusion, not a premise. What makes you think it's a premise and not a conclusion? > Ideally, we would list the good/bad it does and assign weights to these points to determine if it is net harmful. I have 11 years of data points and experiences about FB, I'm not going to enumerate all of them whenever there is another. I'll just say "typically fucking Facebook". At this point, I don't even fee…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#367
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know why you're strawmanning me into being responsible for every act of suppression by a person who claimed to be acting for social justice You are the one claiming "no harm done". I proved you wrong. Otherwise I would have absolutely no interest in that issue.

You gave some examples of how social justice overreach can be used as a guise to suppress people. Which is not really what I asked. I asked what the harm would be of you adopting the more sensitive language in your own usage. I didn't ask what the harm would be of you becoming a crusader against anything that could be perceived in a racial way.

> I asked what the harm would be of you adopting the more sensitive language in your own usage.

"sensitive"

sensitive according to whom? what morals? what ideology? I'm not hurting my own feeling as a black man every time I use "blacklist" or "slave" in a specific context that is even explained in a dictionary, why are you trying to force your political beliefs (because that's what it is) on me? why are you constantly patronizing me? that I indeed find it offensive. I'm not going to change the canonical definition of the words I use to please you.

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#368
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what precedent is that? The idea that companies aren't above the law? That's a precedent I wish was more enforced. I'm proud of my parliament today (and it's not often I can say that), even if in other parts they're tearing themselves apart.

What laws did Facebook break that warranted seizing and publishing internal documents?

> What laws did Facebook break that warranted seizing and publishing internal documents?

Parliament is sovereign. Facebook ignored Parliament. That is tantamount to blowing off an American court order.

More pointedly, Facebook has broken their agreements on keeping WhatsApp and Facebook data separate. These e-mails further show Onavo and Facebook conspiring to hide their intent around data collection users, which likely breaks British privacy and honest trade law.

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also consider that you have seen eleven years of data points and experiences from the point of view of a small subset of users; there could perhaps be an equivalent cache of positive datapoints which tend to be significantly less interesting to report on. You know what a thief can be like? 99.99% of the time, they don't steal. They sleep, they brush their teeth, they do all sorts of stuff, and every 2 weeks they ta…

> You can't speak for that other person. Let them respond for themselves. Sounds like you're more interested in competing with someone than talking about ideas. > Would you really care about any positive stories after seeing what you saw? ...yes? Of course? I don't automatically dehumanize that hypothetical person for their deeds, whether I approve or not, or believe there should be consequences. Like, doesn't Facebo…

> Sounds like you're more interested in competing with someone than talking about ideas.

No, I want to talk about the idea they expressed, not what you read into it. I can only do that with them.

> ...yes? Of course? I don't automatically dehumanize

Who's talking about dehumanizing? How is considering someone a thief dehumanizing?

edit2: Facebook is a company. It can't be dehumanized, it's not a person in the first place. People in it are responsible for what they do. Someone who fought shitty decision and then left is different than someone who, say, hires a firm to smear critics. That goes without saying as far as I'm concerned. But my thief example refers to Facebook, you see? Just because apparently my argument isn't easy to follow for everyone, doesn't mean it doesn't stand.

So, where is the dehumanization? Who is being dehumanized when someone comes to the conclusion that FB is on the whole "bad"? Because we're not appreciating all the good, supposedly? When someone is a thief, or a murderer, or a company is, then all their fantastic properties they may have is interesting for their personal friends. But not to the police, judges, or wider society. They know that the person has probably a lot of reasons for how they became that way, and nice sides to them, but they already have their own friends, it's simply completely out of scope of the subject at hand, unless it's directly related to the "crime".

> Like, doesn't Facebook collaborate with law enforcement in tracking down predators and scammers and the like?

Yes, and that thief who sometimes robs elderly women who then freeze to death outside, also has child, and he's very great with that child, and he's singing in a choir, and all sorts of great things. But you don't judge a meal by the freshest ingredients, but by the most spoiled. You judge a person by their worst deeds, and likewise a company. Again, we're talking about judgement with a capital justice here, not being friends, thinking we're better, or thinking they're evil and we're good, or any of that.

> You should remember enough to make a proper argument, dude.

I think my argument is just fine, and it even seems to get to you a little.

edit: And what post of mine are you even referring to? Where did I make an argument without examples? I was responding to someone else complaining that everyone who thinks Facebook is "evil" (let's just say bad) is operating on a premise. I was responding to that general point, I'm not decebalus1, who in turn didn't have "Facebook is evil" as their main point either.

Their main point, if you would follow the guidelines, hasn't been addressed by anyone. Their main point is the first two paragraphs, the rest is bonus. How come you are trying to teach how to "make a proper argument, dude", but didn't notice that?

Oh, and clicking buttons instead of reasoning kinda gives away who is interested in discussion, and who is interested in dehumanization and censorship.

Re: Facebook's seized files published by MPs

#370

I worked at Facebook for 5 years on Workplace and Internal Tools. I am typically very critical of the company nowadays, but even so find the discussion here difficult to digest. People are complex. They are more complex than an action, or even a group of actions. To take a person and alias them into being "good" or "bad" based on an action or a series of actions is to explicitly dehumanize them for the sake of making…

If what people are taking away from their time working for FB is, "you know what? Napoleon was pretty cool!" then that really buttons things up tidily, though probably not in the way you intend. Too bad he had the sads about his partner though, I guess.

To take a person and alias them into being "good" or "bad" based on an action or a series of actions is to explicitly dehumanize them for the sake of making the world simpler

Baruch Spinoza more or less invented the concept of ethics in the 17th century, which (partially, and simplifying) is premised on the effect of "an action"[1] being good or bad. If this doesn't reach, let's go back 2,000 more years to Jainism, in which karma is comprised of particles in the universe that stick to a person through their actions (good/bad/undefined).

tl;dr: If your argument is that a person's actions should have no bearing on a sense of "good" or "bad," know that significant parts of the entirety of recorded history contradict you. [insert your own Godwin reference here]

Point being, calling someone "bad" or "good" only speaks to the preponderance of evidence one way or another, and it's absolutely within all of our rights to have an opinion on what FB/Zuck/SS have done with the aspects of our lives to which they have had access, down to discrete decisions. I mean, I don't think anybody would say that FB has obviated the concept of reputation, and having an effect on society doesn't only refer to the good. And really, I don't see anybody saying "Zuck = bad" nearly as much as I see "Zuck = good" and "Zuck has done bad things and made bad decisions." He's the face of the company, this is how society works when you're not moving fast and breaking things.

It's not about people being complex, it's about people shitting in the world's PII sink at the party. Specific people, with witnesses. These were actual choices made under consultation with many people, all of whom are extremely highly-compensated, to reduce the control you have over information about your actual life (what focus groups pay big money for). It's not outlandish to say that the ability to trade pictures with and keep up with people has not been a fair trade.

Forgive me if I discount the hosting of online charity facilities (and really: [3]), and the supplanting of phone calls and neighborly phone trees in times of disaster or crisis, but in the words of Nelson Muntz, "If you hadn't done it, some other loser would have. So quit milkin' it,"[4] and maybe that other loser would have protected their users more. (and please don't insult us with anything along the lines of "personal information doesn't have value until someone sells it")

To conclude with an even larger shadow, FB has made a shitton of money from these policies, money they use to hire people and pay them enough not to work at other companies that also pay a lot, and this money has been used to drive up housing prices and rent for their employees' convenience (nobody overbids for fun). Thus this infrastructure of data scams affects the ability of teachers to live near the schools in which they teach, police to live among those they patrol, and low wage workers to not have to commute 2+ hours each way.[5] I don't know if working at FB inures you to these examples, but it seems clear that FB leadership does not display the maturity that I personally would like to see in those who have the ability to make these decisions. Zuck didn't personally raise rents, but he built machinery that did so. But hey, it aiin't his fault his exploding knife-gun hurt someone, he painted it pink!

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conatus

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Jainism

3. https://www.wired.com/story/nonprofits-facebook-get-hacked-n...

4. https://www.simpsonsarchive.com/episodes/3F22.html

5. https://www.curbed.com/2018/3/6/17082570/affordable-housing-...

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