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Remind HN: Vote

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Re: Remind HN: Vote

#231

Post by CWuestefeld »

siculars wrote: post #221
CWuestefeld wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that your comments are partly in jest Nope, 100% serious. It's wrong because voting is an inherent citizenship right; it cannot be made... I agree completely. In no way do I advocate any sort of qualification. That's a slippery slope the first step of which is incredibly steep. What I'm advocating is that people self-select. I wish we could each reflect personally, and try to determine whether we really…

You have some nerve. You really do. Has it occurred to you that the mere act of participation in and exercising your right to vote is an act of "...knowledge and understanding..." in it's own right? I find the totality of your comments in this thread incredibly offensive. To suggest that citizens abdicate their right to vote is incredulous. I am of the opinion that every citizen should be encouraged to vote by any an…

I'm sorry that you're offended. However, stating that you are offended, and then re-asserting your belief in voting really doesn't do anything to show my where the error is in my argument.

I'd have an easier time understanding where I've gone astray if you could address my two questions:

1. Is it immoral to vote by dice?

2. In what ways does an ignorant voter, reacting emotionally to propaganda, differ from voting by dice?

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#232

Post by jozo »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #214
jozo wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should vote, even if you don't seem to understand what representation[1] means. You also seem to only refer to liberals, but at the same time you say people shouldn't vote? I thought individual freedom and equal rights was a core principle in liberalism, but I guess you are only counting positive freedom. If you really believe that people shouldn't have a say in elections based on your criteria, you shoul…

You also seem to only refer to liberals,... I thought individual freedom and equal rights was a core principle in liberalism, but I guess you are only counting positive freedom. Huh? I mentioned JS Mill and Locke, Mises and Hayek. The first two were classical liberals. That's a very different thing than what we label "Liberal" (with a capital "L") today. You'll find individual freedom at the core of their work (e.g.,…

You must understand that other people don't necessarily share your idea of what's important. To me it seems you are saying that people shouldn't vote unless they know these subjects from this particular viewpoint and in extension therefor also share your view of what's important.

If you made the argument that no one should vote because no one can fully understand all different viewpoints and you yourself won't be voting, then I would at least understand the argument. But I don't think that is what you are saying.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#233

Post by jamesteow »

Nick_C wrote: post #126
joelmichael wrote: post #70

I vote and believe in voting, but this thread makes me think that most people haven't really thought through the philosophy behind voting. Those who feel that voting is an irrational sham are not going to care about your "obligation," and you come off looking like a laughably naive jerk in condemning them for failing to do their civic duty. Mandatory voting is disagreeable for the same reason mandatory anything is: i…

> Mandatory voting is disagreeable for the same reason mandatory anything is: it uses force to make people do what they don't want to do, which reeks of tyranny. I very much disagree with this statement, which smacks of hyperbole. A citizen has certain responsibilities. It is not tyranny to expect that citizen to perform their responsibility. One of the responsibilities is jury duty and, I would argue, voting is anot…

I think that what people buy has a pretty important effect too, especially in the U.S. considering that corporations fund political parties/interest groups/politicians.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#234

Post by rcthompson »

mast wrote: post #146
Retric wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have spent 4-5 hours on more than one occasion.

You're kidding. Why does it take so long?

It's quite common for both of the main parties in the USA (Democrats and Republicans) to try to disenfranchise voting districts that vote predominantly for the other party. This can be done by sabotaging voting machines, resulting in long wait times that will discourage people from voting (as mentioned by another comment); or intentionally underestimating voter turnout and delivering too few machines in the first place; or by spreading rumors that it's a landslide and they don't need to vote; or spreading misinformation on how to fill out the ballot, resulting in failed votes; or intentionally putting polling places in the bad part of town to scare away voters; or putting polling places far away from public transit and/or sufficient parking space; or any number of underhanded tactics designed to prevent people from. None of it is ever really proven or investigated, but you tend to get a lot of highly significant p-values on election day, indicating that most of these events are probably intentional, and not accidental.

And don't forget Gerrymandering, in which the party in power redraws the voting district lines to ensure that every district has a majority of their party (though that happens before election day): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering

Edit: I added a few more examples from other replies that represent common methods of intentional sabotage.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#235

Post by Quarrelsome »

drats wrote: post #177
imeikas wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Estonia you can vote from almost anywhere if you have ID-card and working internet connection. It's really convenient and people are using this more and more. For example last elections 15.75% of votes were made using internet. Official statistics can be found from http://vvk.ee/voting-methods-in-estonia/engindex Also there are talks that they want to enable voting with mobile phones (there are already solutions w…

Sorry, that's completely insane even if it's open source.

I don't think it is. But even so as they live next door to Russia I think it's probably a good thing to try these things out and learn things the hard way.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#237

Post by lusis »

dools wrote: post #35
nikcub wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always believed that not voting is also a vote, but you are fined in Australia if you do not show up and cast your ballot. The only way to say 'none of the above' is by filing an informal vote. This is a de-facto way of saying that you don't like any of the options, and at least in Australia this informal vote is tracked and parties take notice of it. In the USA if you vote to not vote, Washington bundles you in wi…

There is no reason to abstain in Australia because we have a preference system. In the States, when Nader ran against Gore it divided the Democrat vote and Bush won. The same thing doesn't happen in Australia so if you vote for a minor party because you really believe in their policies, although they may still preference a major party that you don't wholly agree with they still get funding based on the number of vote…

I have to call BS. This argument that third parties split the vote is nonsense.

Me voting for a third-party candidate is does not imply that I would have voted for any other candidate had they not been on the ballot. Had that candidate not been on the ballot, I would have abstained from that particular position.

It's like the BSA argument that people who steal software (yes it's stealing) would have normally bought the software. No, they wouldn't have.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#238

Post by jamesteow »

tmcneal wrote: post #103

For those of you looking to do some last minute research before voting today, my web app provides candidate information along with information on the positions each candidate supports or opposes: http://elect.io

Cool and easy to use. We actually worked on something similar where we ask your position on causes and show the grades according to policies: http://www.votereports.org

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#239

Post by ekiru »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #185
Jun8 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that your comments are partly in jest (I hope!), but still the basic idea expressed in them is very misguided, dangerous and wrong: Misguided, because one can argue that everyone acts according to their beliefs, even an economics professor. You cannot talk about a clear dichotomy between those who vote on their belief and those who vote on "rational principles". It's wrong because voting is an inherent c…

I understand that your comments are partly in jest Nope, 100% serious. It's wrong because voting is an inherent citizenship right; it cannot be made... I agree completely. In no way do I advocate any sort of qualification. That's a slippery slope the first step of which is incredibly steep. What I'm advocating is that people self-select. I wish we could each reflect personally, and try to determine whether we really…

The problem with uninformed voters self-selecting to not vote is that the people who decide not to vote because they are not sufficiently informed tend to be in the middle range of informedness. There are many more people who are even less well-informed and have put less thought into their voting decisions who will vote.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#240

Post by paradoja »

shasta wrote: post #137
rsbrown wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

David Foster Wallace said better than I: "If you are bored and disgusted by politics and don't bother to vote, you are in effect voting for the entrenched Establishments of the two major parties, who please rest assured are not dumb, and who are keenly aware that it is in their interests to keep you disgusted and bored and cynical and to give you every possible psychological reason to stay at home doing one-hitters a…

Eloquent and wrong. Voting for anything other than one of the two entrenched parties is usually a waste of time and gasoline. There is no cabal of evil masterminds responsible for cynicism and apathy - it's an emergent property of the rules of the game. If you can join forces with like-minded citizens in support an idea that you believe in, as part of a movement that could change national policies for the better, the…

One thing I don't like about the moral «obligation» to vote is that to many people, casting a ballot is all the political action they can consider. Politics seems reduced to elect one of the two big parties. It seems that the alternative is, either to vote or to not make any political action.

The truth is that many people are politically active independently of wether they vote or not.

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