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Remind HN: Vote

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Re: Remind HN: Vote

#11

Post by blue1 »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #9

I don't know how laws and culture are in the USA, but in my country (Italy) vote is not an obligation. Vote is a right, and a hard earned one. It is also considered a civil duty. But never an obligation. The choice not to vote is also an expression of one's idea: that he does not believe in any of the politicians, or in the system as a whole. Lack of votes is also a measure on how much people believe in politicians.…

"Never an obligation" is imprecise. Voting in Italy was obligatory until 1993. Also see article 48 of the italian constitution, where the exercise of the vote is defined "a civic duty".

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#12

Post by axod »

frobozz wrote: post #3

If you vote for a losing candidate, then you can complain that your voice has not been heard. If you vote for a winning candidate, then you can complain when they break their promises. If you don't vote, you have nothing to complain about but your own laziness.

What if you disagree with the system of giving everyone a vote being a valid way to decide things?

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#13

Post by RiderOfGiraffes »

cletus wrote: post #7

In Australia voting is mandatory. If you're registered to vote and you don't you can get fined. If no one is registered to vote at your address you'll tend to get lots of mail about it (but ultimately, staying off the electoral roll isn't difficult). I used to think this was a bad idea as it forced people to vote who didn't really care. In recent years I've come around to the opposite point of view based pretty much…

And for those who complain about not having the right to abstain, you can get the same effect by turning up and spoiling your ballot paper. You can even make a show of doing it so that everyone can see you're deliberately not casting a valid vote. That makes more of a point that staying home and being invisible.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#14

Post by nikcub »

cletus wrote: post #7

In Australia voting is mandatory. If you're registered to vote and you don't you can get fined. If no one is registered to vote at your address you'll tend to get lots of mail about it (but ultimately, staying off the electoral roll isn't difficult). I used to think this was a bad idea as it forced people to vote who didn't really care. In recent years I've come around to the opposite point of view based pretty much…

I always believed that not voting is also a vote, but you are fined in Australia if you do not show up and cast your ballot.

The only way to say 'none of the above' is by filing an informal vote. This is a de-facto way of saying that you don't like any of the options, and at least in Australia this informal vote is tracked and parties take notice of it.

In the USA if you vote to not vote, Washington bundles you in with everybody else and assumes that you have no interest.

The ideal solution would be

a) Voting is mandatory, but with a formal 'none of the above' option

b) Voting is not mandatory, but representation is allocated based on what portion of total people voted for you, not allocated based on the portion of the total vote. (ie. if in one state all 25M people voted, they should get 5 representatives in congress, while if in another state of 50M people only 5M votes, they should only get 1 seat in congress)

With a quota based system based on proportion of population congress/parliament would then be a true representation. It is the only way to reflect the will of the entire population, meaning that those who choose to stay at home can no longer be ignored.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#15

Post by mahmud »

cletus wrote: post #7

In Australia voting is mandatory. If you're registered to vote and you don't you can get fined. If no one is registered to vote at your address you'll tend to get lots of mail about it (but ultimately, staying off the electoral roll isn't difficult). I used to think this was a bad idea as it forced people to vote who didn't really care. In recent years I've come around to the opposite point of view based pretty much…

I am Yank, Arab and Somali (I hold three passports) and I will soon be an Aussie, via marriage. I have spent a year in Australia. My feeling is that Aussies are not really as political as Americans.

American voting is under-informed and has low turn out, but at least the few percentage of electorate that vote actually care.

Aussies .. I am not sure if they don't care, or if they're just good at hiding their political views. It's far easier to speak to an American and learn about his/her political stances. Aussies are much more opaque, in my experience, and seem to be equally resentful of all politicians.

For all their bureaucracy, Aussies are far more anarchic and egalitarian than any other nation that I am familiar with, except maybe Somalis.

Australians, at least the ones in NSW that I have come to know, consider the government and politicians "a bunch of wankers". They're very pessimistic about the people they elect; which is both nice, and also harmful.

Having said that .. Aussie Aussie Aussie!

[Edit:

People should harden the fuck up and visit Australia; everyone should live there at least once. Just thinking about that place brings a smile to my face. They're a nation of good-natured jokers, thoroughly beautiful I tell ya. But be prepared to be bull-shat left and right; you will have a hard time if you're a self-righteous prick]

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#16

Post by mbreese »

michaelkeenan wrote: post #6

If you have an obligation to vote, then it's an obligation to make an informed vote. If you haven't attempted to evaluate your decision carefully and can't make an informed vote, please don't vote. Informed voting > not voting > uninformed voting Greg Mankiw has a column on this: http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/11/election-day-approach...

This column was originally written in Oct 2000. I wonder if he still holds the same opinion. I think that the problem with assuming that the uninformed shouldn't vote is that you assume that all of the uninformed don't vote, or that the distribution is uniform. This is far from the case.

It might be the case that we should encourage everyone to vote, so that all of the uninformed votes might cancel each other out.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#17

Post by koningrobot »

frobozz wrote: post #3

If you vote for a losing candidate, then you can complain that your voice has not been heard. If you vote for a winning candidate, then you can complain when they break their promises. If you don't vote, you have nothing to complain about but your own laziness.

This is wrong. One shouldn't have to vote to be left alone. Reality is different, I know, but it isn't one's laziness that is to blame. (PS: I vote.)

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#18

Post by jdietrich »

If you don't vote, you have no right to complain about the next set of assholes.

Here in the UK, the British National Party (a far-right fringe party) got two seats in the last European Parliament elections simply because turnout had fallen so low for the main parties. A lot of people are rightly ashamed at not bothering to vote. The only people who benefit from apathy are extremists and demagogues who can reliably rally support. A moderate political environment depends upon people motivating themselves to vote for boring candidates.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#19

Post by mbreese »

nikcub wrote: post #14
cletus wrote: post #7

In Australia voting is mandatory. If you're registered to vote and you don't you can get fined. If no one is registered to vote at your address you'll tend to get lots of mail about it (but ultimately, staying off the electoral roll isn't difficult). I used to think this was a bad idea as it forced people to vote who didn't really care. In recent years I've come around to the opposite point of view based pretty much…

I always believed that not voting is also a vote, but you are fined in Australia if you do not show up and cast your ballot. The only way to say 'none of the above' is by filing an informal vote. This is a de-facto way of saying that you don't like any of the options, and at least in Australia this informal vote is tracked and parties take notice of it. In the USA if you vote to not vote, Washington bundles you in wi…

Option B would be pretty interesting, and might provide a decent incentive for people to vote. However, if people aren't likely to vote anyway, why would they care how much representation they have in Congress?

We effectively do have a "none of the above" option: don't select anyone and still cast the ballot. However, it would be better if there was an explicit "No vote" option.

The biggest problem with voting not being mandatory is that a lot of people don't have the opportunity because they can't get off work. If you made voting mandatory (or at least made election day a paid holiday), this impediment might be alleviated.

Re: Remind HN: Vote

#20

Post by tallanvor »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #9

I don't know how laws and culture are in the USA, but in my country (Italy) vote is not an obligation. Vote is a right, and a hard earned one. It is also considered a civil duty. But never an obligation. The choice not to vote is also an expression of one's idea: that he does not believe in any of the politicians, or in the system as a whole. Lack of votes is also a measure on how much people believe in politicians.…

I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. If you make a conscious decision not to vote, that is a valid way of expressing your opinion. But I doubt many non-voters are making that choice. Apathy or the belief that their vote won't make a difference are the biggest reasons people don't vote (at least based on the people I know who don't vote), and that is a problem.

I would rather people care enough to vote, no matter who they vote for - even if it means more crazy people in politics.

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