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The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

nytimes.com

141–150 of 155 posts

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#141
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the distinction being made is between evolution and design. In evolution traits do not come about for a reason, they occur at random, but they persist if they are advantageous.

Yes. But there's an illusion of intentionality. Because [pausing, looking at my hands] it's all just so bloody amazing. But on the other hand, some of the kludginess is also bloody amazing. Spiders, for example. The gut passes through the "brain". So there's a tradeoff between "brain" size and eating. And so they employ external digestion, and suck liquid.

Well, a couple of things start to make sense about the kludginess, if you start with the single-cellular origin, and then pile up layers of specialized tissue, with some cells permanently buried within the organism, never to be exposed to an external environment.

The first part is that brains are just plain weird, and perhaps one of the weirdest aspected of any multicellular organism. More than half of all known life forms don’t have brains. So, brains usually aren’t a priority.

Second, the gut is often regarded as a brain-like organ in many vertebrates, and so, with arthropods and crustaceans, it’s interesting that the the two might be more tightly coupled. It probably cheapens the endocrine feedback loop.

Third, external digestion actually comes across as less freakish and uncivilized underwater. On land it has a messy, disgusting sensibility, but in the ocean it’s kind of on par with a smokey cooking fire at a camp site, especially when considered from a single celled animal’s perspective.

When you consider that crabs and lobsters are the ancestral relatives of insects and arachnids, the low prioritization of a brain, and externalized digestion start to look more and more normal.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#142
post #3

Octopi are interesting in that they evolved along their own path. The octopus eye has the wiring on the back, where it belongs, instead of on the front blocking some of the light, as most other animals with eyes do.

The Oxford English Dictionary lists octopuses, octopi and octopodes (in that order); it labels octopodes "rare", and notes that octopi derives from the mistaken assumption that octōpūs is a second declension Latin noun, which it is not. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/270/what-is-the-...

If you are interested in the plurals of Octopus it is interesting also this note from the Merraim-Webster's site https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-plura...

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#143
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But there's an illusion of intentionality. Because [pausing, looking at my hands] it's all just so bloody amazing. But on the other hand, some of the kludginess is also bloody amazing. Spiders, for example. The gut passes through the "brain". So there's a tradeoff between "brain" size and eating. And so they employ external digestion, and suck liquid.

Well, a couple of things start to make sense about the kludginess, if you start with the single-cellular origin, and then pile up layers of specialized tissue, with some cells permanently buried within the organism, never to be exposed to an external environment. The first part is that brains are just plain weird, and perhaps one of the weirdest aspected of any multicellular organism. More than half of all known life…

Crabs and lobsters don't use external digestion but eat their food not terribly different from what we do. So it looks like spiders evolved their system later.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#144
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think the bigger issue for gazelles is energy density period - brains are calorie hogs and it doesn't take much cunning to track down grass. Grass eating is the opposite direction in a food strategy - going for abundant but low density food instead of chasing higher density. A diverse diet is a bit of a hallmark of intelligence in itself in that they are able to use their brains to get more food to make it wor…

Speaking of Hermit Crabs, I was also blown away by their communal shell exchange process. Many hermit crabs will come together and work as a team to change shells in hierarchy. If you've never seen it, you are in for a treat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1dnocPQXDQ

I feel like there's something taboo, something indecent about seeing a hermit crab out of its shell.

That one crab was caught with its pants down for a moment.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I've read is that crows are smart for the same reason that dolphins are smart ("social intelligence"). Crows also tend to live in flocks/groups, unlike many other bird species. Not a great source, but here's an excerpt explaining that they tend to grow up in groups: But growing up is a different story. During younger years, they often live in larger flocks dubbed juvenile gangs. "It's exactly how it sounds: they…

The octopus is a counterpoint to this, being very intelligent but absolutely solitary.

But it has excellent hands.

Humans may be unique in having both complex social structure as well has hands.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#146

How does an octopus know how to match its body with its background? All video I've seen have been with the octopus eyes up, it's not even looking at the background, so how does it know a) what the background color is, and 2) that its body is matching the background, since it's not looking at itself either.

They have photoreceptors on their skin too.

As if they don't have enough super powers already.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#147
Another interesting ted talk on human brain vs others: https://www.ted.com/talks/suzana_herculano_houzel_what_is_so...

It talks about number of neuron and why cooked food helps us in giving the energy required for the large number of neurons. Also cooked food gives us free time to think. (edited for clarity)

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, the octopus is choosing its shelter based of fluid reasoning, while the arthropods are doing it in a reflexive instinctual manner.

I honestly don't see where the distinction is. What do you call fluid reasoning? As the article says, cephalopods' ancestors used to have shells, like snails. Finding a replacement when it is available seems pretty instinctual to me, if only as a vestigial behavior.

Don't know why you're getting down votes, this is a reasonable question.

For instance, if you have a container full of hermit crabs, shells, and other debris, nearly 100% of the crabs will adorn themselves with a shell, because of the instinctual drive to protect their carapace.

While if you were to repeat the same exercise, but with octopuses instead of crabs, the octopuses will find shelter in many different and creative ways. Some will find crevasses, while others will wear a shell like their ancestors (though this isn't likely instinct, since ancient cephalopods grew their shells, instead of hunting for them). Some will even live in a shell, and then find a "door" to cover the entrance with.

Combine with evidence of mechanical aptitude, from experiments where octupus are given food in locked containers, it's pretty clear they have a deep understanding of the world around them. For example you can give an octopus a meal in a threaded jar, and after some initial experimentation, they will reliably get to the food. The second time, it will immediately unthread the jar without experimentation, suggesting that it learned the "trick." Keep in mind, very few animals physically capable of opening a jar are actually smart enough to figure out how jars work, so this is very impressive.

Another interesting example, wild octopuses favorite food is crab, they will seek out fisherman's crab traps in the wild, open the latch mechanism, then gorge themselves on all the trapped crab inside. They are the only animal I know of that will do this.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#149

One theory why primates evolved big brains is because they had hands. Big brains for an animal like a gazelle don’t pay off because, without hands, there isn’t much a gazelle can do with that big brain. Better it use that energy for bigger leg muscles. Primates evolves hands so they could better grasp branches, but, once they had hands, there was a lot more they could do with them, like make tools. A bigger brain for…

Most primates don't do a whole lot with their hands that's different than say what birds do with their beaks. Chimps are not building iPhones out there. Intelligence is also needed to plan, and notice & remember patterns of food & threats. Those don't necessarily involve hands.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#150
post #6
post #3

Octopi are interesting in that they evolved along their own path. The octopus eye has the wiring on the back, where it belongs, instead of on the front blocking some of the light, as most other animals with eyes do.

They apparently also don't require crossing wires connecting each eye with the opposite brain hemisphere. Instead, the optic lobes are directly behind the eyes: http://cephalove.blogspot.com/2010/06/view-of-octopus-brain....

The visual system was often cited by proponents of intelligent design as evidence of god. But the mammalian visual system is an absolute mess. Anyone who designed that would have been fired on the spot. The octopus visual system, on the other hand, is quite elegant and efficient. If there really were an intelligent designer, the implications would be worrying.
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