For a second I thought I was reading The Onion. I do however like the philosophical nature of the question: If people can change their gender based on they feel, why can’t they change their age?
“Age” and “gender” in this case are just entries in a government database somewhere. There’s no deep philosophy to it. Trans people wanted to be able to change their gender, so they fought hard for it—that’s what you need to do to get policies like this changed. If people want to be able to change their age, they’ll have to fight for that too.
Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
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Re: Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
#62For a second I thought I was reading The Onion. I do however like the philosophical nature of the question: If people can change their gender based on they feel, why can’t they change their age?
You're right. The answer to that is that people should not be able to change their gender--unless something gets invented that can change your chromosomes--but if they can then age and race should be allowed, too. If anything, because by changing gender you can get all sort of advantages if you become a woman: - tax cuts if you start a company - retire earlier - you win at sport competitions - about 1000 other things…
Let me preent two arguments against that line of thinking:
- people born with chromasomal oddities such as XXY or XYY, asked to fit in box XY or XX, they do not fit. Do we need a separate gender for all possible chromosomal configurations? There are more than you might expect.
- while you can’t change your chromosomes, you can change how people percieve you in the world. Is gender (as in drivers license m or f) actually supposed to represent your chromosomal configuration - or is it there to match up with how you are percieved?
Last thing: you point to advantages of being female. While I’d argue that those advantages don’t exist because being female come with disadvantages that balance things out, but even if they did, the cost of changing your entire identity makes them unappealing. I find it hard to believe we’d see any significant number of people doing anything like this.
Re: Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a violation of the terms of service.
Probably so. Do most people on Tinder abide by the ToS? If he looks 49, who is going to report him for a violation? If someone does report him, how hard is it to make a new account?
Re: Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why, is gender arbitrary? There are albino blacks, blonde latinos, etc.
It's my (extremely outside) understanding that the concepts of physical/genetic/choose-something-objective gender are not what people mean in these conversations - nor are they referring to the subjective identity of what kinds of people one feels sexually attracted to. They are referring to a third thing, also subjective, best described as "what gender you feel like", which is very much like how old or young you fee…
Re: Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because it's socially popular for it to be, so the goalposts will be moved wherever they need to be for it to be true.
This is pretty dismissive and simplistic. You should read my sibling post to yours and give your opinion.
The thing I take issue with is the knee-jerk reaction of certain people to shut down any conversation that suggests traditional roles and definitions were and still are valid.
Yes it's simplistic. It was a one line statement. Is it dismissive? Maybe. But it also has a grain of truth to it, which is what bothers people.
Re: Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
People are male or female by genetics and have a personal perception of themselves as something other than that gender. I can totally see how someone might be 69, but still running triathlons, and want to identify with an effective age that is 49. I fail to see how these two cases are different.
Age is determined by trips around the Sun and sex is determined by genetics. Gender, by definition, is not determined by sex. You are conflating sex and gender, but they are not the same thing. You can feel like a man, but be biologically a woman. You can feel like 40 at 70, but you're still 70. gen·der /ˈjendər/Submit noun 1. the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural dif…
Re: Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's an issue of fact vs expression/perception. There was a moment in time when you started breathing outside of your mother's womb. There is usually a witness and time is a one-way metric. Gender expression is a different, more complex matter. There has always been "grey" areas from an anatomy perspective and I think there is consensus that other factors affect this as well. Race, depending on context, is even more…
Really? The idea of age being a publicly known and verifiable fact is completely specific to highly developed Western cultures. Many places in the world attach no importance to date/time of birth and do not record it.
Whatever adjudication process that exists in a culture that doesn’t care about date of birth would probably reach a different judgement.
Re: Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
69 years old (more or less on earth or in space) is no different than Male or Female (more or less). The difference is in relative subjective granularity.
That's simply wrong. Age has a definition. You cannot 'feel' yourself into a different age. Sex != gender.
> Age has a definition.
Relativity explains that this definition is subjective, experimentally.
Astronauts experience time differentials and it will only get more obvious as we go farther. Again, the concept of granularity (how much of what matters from what perspective) applies in both cases - age and gender.
This isn't a justification. Resolve this philosophically however you like with one and I observe that it should be true in the other case.
Re: Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's an issue of fact vs expression/perception. There was a moment in time when you started breathing outside of your mother's womb. There is usually a witness and time is a one-way metric. Gender expression is a different, more complex matter. There has always been "grey" areas from an anatomy perspective and I think there is consensus that other factors affect this as well. Race, depending on context, is even more…
> There has always been "grey" areas from an anatomy perspective Yes, extremely rare ones. It's not clear to me what the existence of the occasional XXY individual, etc., has to do with the idea that gender is just a social construct.
It doesn't, but it does have to do (potentially) with the argument.
One side says "Gender is male/female, scientific fact, and can be examined in DNA". They are outright rejecting the idea of gender being a social construct.
The other side COULD try to argue that gender is a social construct by virtue of all the social variables and treatments that are involved, but that doesn't actually set up gender as a social construct - those can all be social issues ATTACHED to a non-social construct, just as young/old are the social constructs attached to chronological age. To convince the other side, you need to separate gender as a concept from the genes. If the "static binary" group cannot imagine a gender identity separate from the genes, they might understand someone XXY having one of those binary options. They may even understand one XXY person being "male" and another being "female". Even if they argue that there is still a rigorous "male" and "female" option that is based on the expression of the genes, they are accepting that we are making some definition of "male" and "female" that is from a collection of criteria. The "decision" of what is in those collections of criteria are more clearly socially influenced.
So: Society decides what defines "male" and "female" traits (based on "traditional" traits exhibited by chromosome-based sex) => society is defining male and female for the unusual genetic mixes => male/female is based on behavior => male/female isn't solely decided by chromosomes => having only strict male/female definitions is not the only set of definitions available.
At least, that's how I understand the argument. And I have some anecdotal evidence for it - My first exposure to transgender/intersex/etc was in college with a video made by a group of people who WERE unusual genotype or extreme phenotype differences. Listening to someone talking about how they felt like a "boy" but their penis was removed shortly after birth, forcing them to be in a world that treated them as a "girl" gave me a perspective I could identify with (and was horrifying - it also gave me my first real moment of empathy to consider how day-to-day life is different for a woman. Realizing that I (cis-straight male) thought the idea of being treated as female was actually scary caused me to rethink some assumptions...and I was raised to be socially liberal. The idea that there was a penis to be removed made me instinctively agree that this person could be male in a way that is hard to match.
That said, I don't think the non-XX/XY phenotype argument is the most persuasive available, or at least not for everyone. I do think it's a valid approach, even if such visible phenotype differences are rare.
Re: Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Gender" is a social construct but while "old" or "young" is a social construct "69 years old" isn't really.
But on a birth certificate they show sex, not gender.