This was a very interesting read in that it gives a solid example on how designing a system can be outperformed by a natural selection approach. Us humans are inclined to design things and it is very easy to dismiss a random trial and error approach to achieve best results.
Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
61–70 of 79 posts
Re: Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
#62This echoes the story of Eurisko, a genetic AI written by Stanford's Douglas Lenat to build Traveller "Trillion Credit Fleets." Eurisko destroyed the competition at the national championship 2 years in row. http://aliciapatterson.org/APF0704/Johnson/Johnson.html In both cases, using the GA allowed a player to more comprehensively search the opportunity space created by the game designers than the designers did during…
I've been looking for material about Eurisko. Other than this championship, there appears to be no credible documentation of any of Eurisko's reported achievements.
It might be super-duper, but the fact that he wouldn't let anyone else use it, and that those amazing feats have not been reproduced by others despite huge advances - might just mean that there's more myth to truth in the stories about Eurisko.
Re: Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Micro", or managing your units in battle, is also vital. I've lost 4 bases worth of Zerg units against a 2 basing Terran through horrible micro.
I've had that happen more times than I can count. It's hard, because all the terran has to do is hit stim on his MMM ball and A-move. As zerg you have to pull off some Robert E. Lee shit to have a chance.
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Re: Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
#64Another unmentioned aspect of this is Blizzard's involvement.
If this build is truly unstoppable in most cases, then Blizzard's balance team will simply nerf some aspect of Zerg to make it harder to abuse. For example, when the balance team determined that Reapers were too strong in early game, they made the tech required for them take longer to get.
Re: Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
#65Just won 10 games in a row 7 roach rushing. This is awesome :)
Re: Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It should decimate most Protoss players unless they scout.. It should (annhilate|destroy|overwhelm| ) most Protoss players unless they scout... FTFY That usage of decimate is as grating to me as it is common. :/ I don't blame you, I'm just shaking my fists at the heavens in impotent rage.
I sympathize and agree. For those who don't know, the word "decimate" comes from a practice of the Roman army in which they would kill one out of every ten soldiers as a punishment for mutiny. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(Roman_army)
That is the origin of the word, but I don't see why there is anything wrong with using it as the original poster did: "to cause great destruction or harm to" is a perfectly valid meaning of the word.
Re: Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Totally -- not to mention surviving long enough to let compound interest naturally magnify that difference. As for the tactics or "logistics" -- if that means clicking 500 times/minute, then i really don't see the appeal :)
StarCraft 2 has tastefully upgraded the UI so that you can do lots of things with less clicks than before in SC 1. (Of course, that means at the higher end, people will just do more now than they did. But it's quite a nice feeling on the beginner level, too. E.g. you can get a worker to work right after it's build. And there's also a button for finding idle workers.)
They could have done more with automation though, like Rise of Nations has superb automation and controls.
Re: Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
#68I'm not going to say that this program is useless, but the example shown (7 roach) would have been near trivial to find by a mere human. Tricks like premaking the overlord, using extractor trick, etc. Have been around for over 10 years since the early days of Starcraft 1. Any person could come up with this build, the question is where did the idea to rush for 7 roaches come from? It sounds like that was manually set…
Yet nobody found it. The closest thing to a roach rush people found was the 5-roach build [1], which is slower and it suffers a lot economically if the rush fails.
For the record, though, I've played against the 7-roach build a couple of weeks ago, and iirc that was a few days before EvolutionChamber was announced. So some people knew about it, maybe they found out about it from the creator, or played against him, who knows.
[1] http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/5_Roach_Rush_%28vs._Te...
Re: Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
StarCraft 2 has tastefully upgraded the UI so that you can do lots of things with less clicks than before in SC 1. (Of course, that means at the higher end, people will just do more now than they did. But it's quite a nice feeling on the beginner level, too. E.g. you can get a worker to work right after it's build. And there's also a button for finding idle workers.)
They could have done more with automation though, like Rise of Nations has superb automation and controls.
Indeed it did, to the point where it wasn't interesting. Which is why RoN didn't pick up on the e-sports (or even multiplayer) scene, unfortunately.
Re: Using genetic algorithms to find Starcraft 2 build orders
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
I just played 17 games using this strat, in the Gold League 1v1 and Bronze league 2v2. And some of the 1v1's where against Diamond league players. 12 wins, 5 losses. Trust me, it works. 1. Against Toss it's almost always a win, especially if you go all in (attack using queen and half your drones). Unless he's got a closed wall with cannons, he can't stop you. In my experience, no-one does this in just about any leagu…
As an aside, I find it interesting that you're Gold 1v1 and Bronze 2v2. I'm Silver 1v1 and Gold 2v2. I'm not convinced the ranking system for 2v2 and above works very well.
Well, I'm 2v2 Bronze in a specific team with a friend (we ranked a few months back and haven't played much together.) On 2v2 Random, I'm also Gold.
But I do agree that ranking for larger teams is poor - for example, I'm 3v3 Platinum, and I'm definitely out of my league - I think I ranked their as a result of being lucky in terms of getting good team mates.