Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost • Hacker News Board

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#81

Post by YorkshireSeason » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

danesparza wrote: post #23

bussierem wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there have already been numerous well-documented instances of people making false accusations that absolutely RUIN THE LIVES of the defendants, it can hardly be a surprise that people with a lot to lose would take drastic, if ill-though-out, measures to protect themselves from that possibility. As another comment said, even when the false accusations are found to be false, it's usually too late for the defendant…

Numerous? Well-documented? I don't mean to be inflammatory -- but I must reading different news that you are. Can you please cite your sources? To be clear: Numerous (to me) means approaching 20% of all accusations. That's only 1 in every 5 accusations. Does numerous mean something else to you?

    Can you please cite your sources?

There is no serious, solid research on this question. "News" is certainly not where you can get serious figures on this matter.

Even the very definitions of what counts as sexual harassment / assault / rape / hate speech etc are deeply controversial. A most prominent example are radical feminists like Dworkin who essentially say that all heterosexual intercourse is rape.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#82

Post by CiPHPerCoder » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

sk4rekr0w wrote: post #77

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a negligible risk. https://web.archive.org/web/20180101025446/https://icdv.idah...

You can't take an average and apply it to a specific situation. In this context, if you believe that men are in dramatic positions of power, then you would have to find the # that shows how often powerful men are wrongly accused (vs. just the average man).

> You can't take an average and apply it to a specific situation.

In the absence of a more focused study, it's the best we have.

Do you have an alternative study to link to?

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#83

Post by wutbrodo » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

dvtrn wrote: post #49

falcolas wrote: post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

We enshrine these in our public justice system; it needs to be spread to private companies as well. If I've come to appreciate anything-among many things-in the last few years of this cultural evolution full of "social justice" debate, discussion and forums-it's that there are pockets of the social fabric who seem very eager to suspend elements of the public justice system or eagerness to put a moratorium on certain…

This is just called rejecting liberalism, which is happening across the left-right political spectrum. It's exhausting to see how common medieval arguments about the way society should be run have become.

That isn't to say that Enlightenment liberalism is unquestionably correct, but the conversation has shifted such that the hoi polloi have started to reject liberalism without having even done the basic work to consider the pitfalls and the counter-arguments to those pitfalls (you will, of course, find more radical strains of thought that reject liberalism, and while I disagree with them, I don't have the same problem, in that they tend to be sincerely held and supported).

To be clear, I don't mean "hoi polloi" to refer to some caricature of an uneducated lower class. It was probably five years ago that I had an argument with someone on an internal board at Google, wherein he claimed the presumption of innocence was irrelevant, since it was a legal constraint by which we weren't bound. Again, not saying that its incontrovertibly correct, but the guy had no concept of why it existed in the justice system and whether those principles were generalizable.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#84

Post by stevenwoo » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

There's a weird double standard in crime in the USA (probably elsewhere), the conviction rate is greater than 85-90 percent for most crimes except sexual assault/rape, where it's closer to 50%, and the lack of whatever you want to call it leads to less people reporting rape/sexual assault, less investigation, all the way to incarceration, so people might feel that there is an inherent bias in results of the criminal system already, part of it is the victim is put on trial in court and public in a way that discourages participation in the system.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#85

Post by throwaway5250 » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #31

This is cowardice. Rational cowardice, perhaps, but still cowardice nonetheless. > “Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.” This reveals so much about the mentality of the people being interviewed. The statistics of false rape accusations do not justify this concern. I would expect that an industry that copes wi…

Avoiding unnecessary risk is not cowardice. In fact, most of us are paid, in part, for doing just that.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#86

Post by CelestialTeapot » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

bussierem wrote: post #12

danesparza wrote: post #5

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solution Wall Street can come up with is to further isolate themselves? Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

When there have already been numerous well-documented instances of people making false accusations that absolutely RUIN THE LIVES of the defendants, it can hardly be a surprise that people with a lot to lose would take drastic, if ill-though-out, measures to protect themselves from that possibility. As another comment said, even when the false accusations are found to be false, it's usually too late for the defendant…

"When there have already been numerous well-documented instances of people making false accusations that absolutely RUIN THE LIVES of the defendants"

*Citation needed on that claim.

The reality is that "false" sexual assault/harassment claims are around 2% to 10%. And that number is likely higher than reality because some law enforcement agencies will call a claim "false" simply because they could not find enough corroborating evidence. [1]

If anything, there is a disincentive to report sexual harassment/assault, because the victim has HISTORICALLY been victimized again in the media. The vast majority of sexual assault crimes go unreported because of this and other reasons. [2, 3]

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/03/health/sexual-assault-false-r...

[2] https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vnrp0610.pdf

[3] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-compassion-chron...

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#87

Post by dandare » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

This man-women discussion is incredibly confused - for many reasons including emotions and malevolence - and it took me quite long until I could say I have formed my opinion. If you are interested:

1/ In modern societies women are often wronged, in the form of discrimination, harassment, abuse, and violence.

2/ Some of the policies designed to help women are hurting man by default, for instance, positive discrimination or "guilty until proven innocent".

3/ Some think the amount of wrongness done to women is orders of magnitude bigger than the amount of wrongness done to man. (Including me)

4/ Some think this discrepancy between wrongness warrants the policies that hurt men by default.

5/ Some think the no amount of wrongness discrepancy warrants a policy that hurts someone by default. (Including me)

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#88

Post by CiPHPerCoder » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #74

> Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.” That’s pretty much the bottom line, said Ron Biscardi, chief executive officer of Context Capital Partners. “It’s really not that hard.” Tell that to Neil Degrass Tyson! Would you ever consider him an asshole? And yet, here he is getting lambasted for pointing out a tattoo on a woman's arm and telling people he doesn't do hugs. You literally can b…

> Tell that to Neil Degrass Tyson! Would you ever consider him an asshole? And yet, here he is getting lambasted for pointing out a tattoo on a woman's arm and telling people he doesn't do hugs.

I thought he was being accused of physically touching a clothed area of the woman's arm without being granted consent, not merely "pointing out". The words "pointing out" imply a gesture, which can be done at a distance, not unwelcome physical contact.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#89

Post by wutbrodo » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #39

falcolas wrote: post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

We never really had "innocent until proven guilty" in these circumstances. Legally sure, but courts have little involvement even now. Until recently, the women/victim side was assumed guilty... still are in many places/circumstances. We're leaving judge and jury duty to the public, social media, old media, individuals and (above all) corporate policy. None of these operate on a presumption of innocence.

> We never really had "innocent until proven guilty" in these circumstances. Legally sure, but courts have little involvement even now.

> Until recently, the women/victim side was assumed guilty... still are in many places/circumstances.

The victim being "assumed guilty" is just an awkward phrasing of "innocent until proven guilty" for the perpetrator. What do you see as the difference?

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#90

Post by threevodka » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

towelr34dy wrote: post #29

I'd say there are other factors. One big one for me is confounding: "Sex predator/Abuser" will be the label placed on a guy who violently rapes a woman, just as it will be applied to the guy who said something PERCEIVED to be inappropriate (or who might have had consenting sex with a employee) My sister the other day refereed to a guy who cat called her as "Violating her integrity". When there is little distinction i…

They’re all interlinked behaviours. For people who are constantly at risk of being sexually assaulted, being harassed by someone is a major indicator of that someone posing physical danger. Although the verbal harasser may never escalate to physical assault, their harassment is a part of the environment that creates risk to potential victims and contributes to their fear.

As men it’s easy to think of harassment as isolated but for many women it’s a constant day to day threat and successfully managing that risk means quickly identifying potential threats even if they may not escalate beyond verbal harassment.

Verbal harassment can put someone already on edge in fear for their life. He absolutely violated her if that’s how she feels.