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China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

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Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#251

Post by rsynnott »

ema wrote: post #218
kd5bjo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently, the most common vehicle I saw being used as a taxi was a Ford Crown Victoria -- a large standard sedan with an aftermarket partition between the front and back seats.

The taxis I have been driven in in Germany and Spain didn't even have a partition between the front and back seats. Honestly I would feel weird sitting in the back of a taxi when the shotgun seat is empty. Must be some internalized egalitarianism.

In Ireland, it's normally, or at least common (it's not required) to sit in the front seat if in a taxi on your own. I think it's similar in some other countries.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#252

Post by rsynnott »

pjc50 wrote: post #73
Animats wrote: post #8

New Flyer, the US's biggest bus maker, is making battery-electric buses. But sales are low - 40 to Montreal, 10 to Toronto, 35 to Los Angeles. In comparison, Shenzhen recently replaced 16,000 of its buses with electrics, all from BYD. Shenzhen also replaced all of its cabs with electrics.

Edinburgh invested in electric and hybrid buses, but they turned out not to have enough power for some of the steeper routes. London is planning to have "Europe's largest electric bus fleet" next year .. of 240 buses? https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/london-to-h... I'm not sure where Shenzen would manage to run 16,000 buses given that London's TFL only have 8,500. The streets must be absolutely full o…

Shenzen's huge, and probably doesn't have as extensive a metro system as London. A quick Google Image search implies that they don't have double-deckers, too, so probably lower capacity per bus.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#253

Post by thinkcontext »

moduspol wrote: post #235
thinkcontext wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not impossible, vehicle fuel prices in Europe are over twice what they are in the US because of taxes.

People don't use nearly as much vehicle fuel in Europe as they do in the US. More clearly stated, my point is that what's really needed is people to adjust their consumption downward dramatically, but the taxes necessary to cause that will be politically infeasible.

> People don't use nearly as much vehicle fuel in Europe as they do in the US.

And you don't think the difference in prices has anything to do with that?

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#254

Post by Theodores »

segmondy wrote: post #172
paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

Why don't we figure out this remote business? If more people, just 10% of the population work remote full time, can you imagine the difference?

Because the roads then fill up with commuters that come in from even further away. Imagine your typical city - jobs in the centre, housing on the outskirts, everyone doing the rush hour thing. People might be prepared to give up three hours of their day for the required commute.

Now if a magic wand is waved and people start to work at home then those desks in the city centre will still be there. If the roads are that bit - 10% - faster/clearer then that tempts people from neighbouring towns to commute into the big city as they can now afford the time to do so due to the roads being quicker.

Rather than work remote the far better idea is to have people work local.

Imagine you have a programming gig on the other side of town and commute across town taking an hour or so each way. Coming the opposite way is someone else who lives near where you work and they are trying to get to an office down the road from where you live. They are a programmer too.

Now what if you could swap jobs with them? In that way you might have a ten minute commute and they might too. In that way a far bigger difference can be made. But the thing is that we don't have a means of matching these job swap opportunities up.

Time for a YC job swap for lazy commute startup?

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#255

Post by masklinn »

z2 wrote: post #227
tedshroyer wrote: post #216

Chattanooga has operated electric buses since the 1990s. I would be surprised if this wasn't known by many municipalities in the US, but still it hasn't taken off. Numbers from late 90s indicate that fuel and maintenance costs would be about 1/4 the cost of diesel( https://afdc.energy.gov/files/pdfs/chatt_cs.pdf ). I guess range has been the problem stopping adoption.

Buses seemed to me to be a rare case where they are so big and heavy anyway, that low energy density from a cheap and old-fashioned lead acid battery could still work. But you're right, I started searching, and found a 2005 US DOT analysis that said otherwise: https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/Electric... > Consequently, powering a full-size bus would require a battery pack that is unacceptably larg…

Yeah the problem is that there are few opportunities for the bus to recharge, they generally don't stop long.

An interesting alternative is modern In-Motion Charging (IMC) buses: stick reasonably big batteries on a trolleybus, when overhead wires are available the trolley uses them and recharges the batteries; and it can run for some time on batteries so it's not as bound to OHL as traditional trolleys.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#256

Post by nicoburns »

bluGill wrote: post #238
jchanimal wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming the best ideas can get funding.

Of course. However your have a better chance because whoever funds the best idea gets the rewards for doing so. It is chance in the end.

This falls down when the costs are things like environmental externalities though, because the companies exploiting these make more money despite producing less overall value for society.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#257

Post by rsynnott »

benj111 wrote: post #145
toine_toine wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now, Tesla consumes more than 60% of the world EV batteries Not sure where you heard that but that is completely false. BYD alone shipped over 100,000 electric cars (not including buses) in the third quarter (compared to Tesla's 83,000). Other Chinese car companies BAIC, Rowe, and Geel all ship over 20k+ plug-ins per quarter.

I've heard it. Eg https://www.inverse.com/article/47731-tesla-gigafactory-now-... But yeah I'm not sure whether China doesn't report battery construction, or under reports or what because it sounds suspect to me also.

> It’s official: Tesla Gigafactory is now the largest annual producer of battery power in the automotive world

Official according to who? I suspect that, like much of the less critical reporting on Tesla, it's just reprinting a press release. In any case, that doesn't match the headline; it's just claiming it's the single biggest factory. There's no substantiation of the headline at all, and looking at the numbers it cannot be true.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#258

Post by Theodores »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #48

Even London's black cabs are going electric, thanks to the Chinese. The London Taxi Company's Chinese owners (Geely) opened a £300m electric taxi factory in Coventry, UK last year. I'm not sure how many of these are in active service but I see them driving around all the time (presumably testing) as the factory is not far from my office. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/03/22/london-taxi-...

Thank goodness for the Chinese.

The old cabs had old engines in them that the Polish army rejected as too polluting and inefficient. For some reason these monsters ended up in the black cabs.

I am pleased that the black cab business has been able to get investment from China instead of being asset stripped from the UK city where no money is ever invested for the long term in British business.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#259

Post by moduspol »

thinkcontext wrote: post #253
moduspol wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't use nearly as much vehicle fuel in Europe as they do in the US. More clearly stated, my point is that what's really needed is people to adjust their consumption downward dramatically, but the taxes necessary to cause that will be politically infeasible.

> People don't use nearly as much vehicle fuel in Europe as they do in the US. And you don't think the difference in prices has anything to do with that?

I'm sure it contributes, but I think the key reason it's more politically feasible is because it doesn't hit as many (especially poorer) Europeans as hard (EDIT: I meant to imply here there are a lot fewer miles driven).

Looking up the statistics on miles driven, the gap isn't as big as I expected, though, so I'm probably not giving the tax as much credit as it deserves.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#260

Post by mikeash »

reirob wrote: post #230
mikeash wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re still a win even when you use coal to charge. It’s true that manufacturing is more energy intensive, but the breakeven point is in the neighborhood of 10-20,000 miles.

Do you have any references for the break even point?

This covers that and much more: https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-...
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