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China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

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Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#201

Post by Spooky23 »

paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

The capital costs are really high, and you lose flexibility.

If you look at the challenges that entities like Google Fiber and municipal wifi initiatives have, one of the major ones is that pole infrastructure is really expensive. In my city, streetlights cost something like $800/yr each.

Battery and associated infrastructure is cheap and effective.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#202

Post by smarinov »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #195
smarinov wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side note, but I don't get the part about Škoda. They have been building cars literally since the onset of the 20th century and have been a well established producer for a long time before the 90s. Or was there some kind of consumer boom for Škoda vehicles in the US/Canada/Australia/the UK, or wherever you are from, that I never heard of before?

Skoda were the subject of many terrible jokes in the 80s and 90s, thanks to poor reputation and reliability of earlier decades. They were so cheap, but far more basic, compared to the better known makes. They started to get OK reliability in the 80s which meant they started to become popular as value for money motoring. They got pretty common on UK roads. Popular and reliable enough to become a common choice for priv…

See also my reply to the sibling, but in the country I come from they were well known maybe from some time between the 20s or 30s, and they were generally always regarded as a good quality brand. Usually not as prominent as others, but still decent nonetheless.

I didn't know that until the last decade or so they were seen as poor vehicles elsewhere, to the extent as to become the target of jokes. Thanks for the context – it definitely helps me understand better how this fits into OP's point.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#203

Post by MagnumOpus »

ovi256 wrote: post #142
CalRobert wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the thought of the Netherlands conjures images of happy families in bakfiets {and jealousy on my part) I was startled to learn their per capita greenhouse gas emissions are among the worst in the EU.

They're an almost completely urban population with a high standard of living. Of course that needs energy and greenshouse emissions to make happen.

An urban population should emit less GHG than the same population being spread out. And standard of living is not that much different from Denmark (20% less) or the UK (30% less).

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#204

Post by shaki-dora »

maeln wrote: post #147
nolok wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few cities in France have been developping trams line this past couple of decade. In "Ile de France" (Paris and its metropolitan area) the last tram line was closed in 1938 but it's coming back and there are now 14 lines planned, 10 of which are already opened (8 of those opened between 2006 and 2017), the oldest one opened in 1992 and the last one in the current plan should open in 2023. https://en.wikipedia…

Nantes was the first city in France to have a tramway [0] :) ! It was very unsafe and thus got the nickname "Péril Jaune" (yellow peril) because of it's color. Today, Nantes still has a wide Tram network and I really enjoy it. I find it more enjoyable than metro. They tend to smell less and you can enjoy the scenery will traveling :) . [0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien_tramway_de_Nantes

> “Péril Jaune" (yellow peril)

Seems to be a common theme in France

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#205

Post by v_lisivka »

Reason077 wrote: post #161
ollie87 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are but they need more infrastructure than battery vehicles.

Exactly. The high cost, inflexibility, and maintenance requirements of overhead wires all make them unattractive for new installations. Battery electric buses, on the other hand, can operate anywhere that diesel buses can, and a fault with one bus or one section of wire will not break the whole route. Many cities also consider overhead wires to be visually unattractive. Birmingham's new tram network is being built to…

Hybrid electric+battery transport and sharing of wires with trucks makes them sexy again.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJO4g_D4jow

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#206

Post by pferde »

Steltek wrote: post #196
JorgeGT wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just if anyone is curious, the technical term for the "tentacles" is pantograph . And if anyone is more curious about why it has "graph" in it, it's because the term refers to the old utensil for copying drawings which is similar in terms of aspect and principle.

Pantographs are only the bar mounted on a scissor-like mechanism that you find on light rail. They only allow for one electrical connection so they don't work for trolley buses. The word I would use here are "trolley poles".

So, "troles"? :)

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#207

Post by Nasrudith »

D_Alex wrote: post #138
paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

Simply because electric buses are the superior technology right now. Metro bus services is actually an ideal application for electric vehicles: The needed range is short, charging facilities can be in one place (depot), stop-start driving suits the propulsion system, and low noise and no emissions are a bonus in the highly populated areas.

Not to mention infastructutal redundancy - trolleys are a bit worst of both worlds in that they require roads, tracks, and overhead wires while often causing manuevering and congestion issues. They are kind of awkward road sharing wise.

They are a way of dodging the battery expenses but unfortunately have their own set of issues. If you already have a great cable car infastructure by all means keep on doing it but they are rare and often more curiosities or secondary transit components.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#208

Post by MagnumOpus »

moduspol wrote: post #179
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not having a dictatorship -- it's having a national economic strategy and a popular will to make decisions without letting very particular selfish interests get in the way. It does not require an authoritarian central leadership. But it does require stopping and rolling back the capture of political bodies and the public sphere generally by private interests.

Respectfully, it's a pipe dream. If gas, energy, or home heating prices double, whoever's in power is going to be voted out. It's not the capture of political bodies that drives that--it's normal people. It'll take a suspension of democracy or a long time to make a measurable impact on climate change.

Not if the tax revenues get distributed back as a carbon dividend - then the only people against it are heavy polluters who lose out.

(And since emissions are not distributed linearly, the losers from a cost-neutral carbon-tax with per-capita-dividend will always be a minority.)

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#209

Post by wazoox »

smarinov wrote: post #198
dagw wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that I never heard of before? Outside the eastern block countries, Skoda was the punchline of jokes and generally considered one of the worst cars you could buy up until the mid-late 90's when they became the Volkswagen budget brand. It's really only since the early 2000's that Skoda became a brand people wouldn't be embarrassed on being seen in.

This explains it. I come from a former Eastern Bloc country and Škoda was well established here well before the former regime overtook power after a short occupation by the Red army. Also, they were definitely not unknown in (parts of) Germany from very early on, although I guess not as prominent as in countries who didn't build their own cars, for obvious reasons. I never knew that until very recently they had such…

Actually that's mostly the Lada that were the subject of many jokes, such as "how do you double the value of a Lada in 5 minutes? By filling up". "What's a Lada on the top of a hill? a miracle. several Lada on a hill? a weird place for a Lada factory. lots of Ladas on a hill? A landfill" etc.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#210

Post by ovi256 »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #203
ovi256 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're an almost completely urban population with a high standard of living. Of course that needs energy and greenshouse emissions to make happen.

An urban population should emit less GHG than the same population being spread out. And standard of living is not that much different from Denmark (20% less) or the UK (30% less).

You're right for the Netherlands and the developped countries, of course. I confused this rural pop with developping countries' rural pop, which of course is a lot less energy intensive.

As for the standard of living differences, are those numbers similar to the energy-per-capita differences between the same countries ?

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