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Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

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Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#221
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you claim something like "John is a carpenter because John is a human and carpenters are humans" and someone points out that your logic doesn't follow (by applying it to some other known non-carpenter human), you can then claim that this doens't prove that John isn't a carpenter, but the point is that the original claim utterly fails to prove that he is.

Where did I assert something similar to your example? It seems like a false analogy. The criticism wasn't even that my logic was flawed but that the same argument could somehow be made to justify any user-hostile action. If the problem in your point of view is that I didn't /prove/ how big of a problem sideloading was then yes, I didn't even attempt to do that. There's a separate subthread on that question.

> Where did I assert something similar to your example? It seems like a false analogy. The criticism wasn't even that my logic was flawed but that the same argument could somehow be made to justify any user-hostile action.

That's why your logic is flawed. If a construct can be used to "prove" various known-false statements then it has no value in proving anything.

> If the problem in your point of view is that I didn't /prove/ how big of a problem sideloading was then yes, I didn't even attempt to do that. There's a separate subthread on that question.

There is no proof of it there either. The most popular platforms (Android on mobile and Windows on desktop) allow the user to load their own applications, showing not only that it can't be a major cause of failure in the market but that it seems to be a characteristic of the player with the most share.

Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#222
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I assert something similar to your example? It seems like a false analogy. The criticism wasn't even that my logic was flawed but that the same argument could somehow be made to justify any user-hostile action. If the problem in your point of view is that I didn't /prove/ how big of a problem sideloading was then yes, I didn't even attempt to do that. There's a separate subthread on that question.

> Where did I assert something similar to your example? It seems like a false analogy. The criticism wasn't even that my logic was flawed but that the same argument could somehow be made to justify any user-hostile action. That's why your logic is flawed. If a construct can be used to "prove" various known-false statements then it has no value in proving anything. > If the problem in your point of view is that I didn…

> If a construct can be used to "prove" various known-false statements then it has no value in proving anything.

Yes, if... But it can't. That criticism of my statement didn't make sense.

> There is no proof of it there either. The most popular platforms [...]

I meant this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18583257

Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#223

I am the author of that add-on ... what would you do in my shoes ? - provide an XPI (that will only benefit the few since the side-loading process is made awkwarder at every point release) ? - fight it ? If so, on what grounds and how ? - something else ?

Rename the plugin and change the description. The message from Mozilla states that the problem is the intent of the plugin. The technological measures it actually takes are not illegal per sé, but are illegal when used to circumvent paywalls (of course IANAL). If you present this as a plug-in that allows you to view websites as the Google bot views them, for educational and debugging purposes, there is no problem. Yo…

The intent of the plugin should not be illegal - that is what this battle is ultimately about, and this takedown action is essentially baseless bullying via the legal system. Each party to a transaction has their own desires, and what these companies are ultimately trying to do make you conform to their internal business desires post facto.

In any transaction there is a demarcation point where interests meet and then part. Businesses have gotten used to this idea of decommodifying [0] their products rather than competing - spamming restrictive clickwrap "licenses" etc. So much so that we view common sense rights like "first sale doctrine" as a friendly exception rather than the bedrock norm. A website telling you how you must/mustn't display the page you've retrieved is equivalent to a retail store demanding a share of your business's profits if you use their products commercially. We can envision such a scheme being cooked up with "terms of sale" and blah blah, but people would rightfully not stand for it - markets and society simply cannot function with such top-down control.

The only difference here is that civilization needs to re-figure these things out for the digital world, especially as frivolous overenforcement appears to be much easier.

[0] Adding unnecessary complexity/restrictions to make their market less efficient. See also: net neutrality.

Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#224
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paywalls aren’t enshrined by any law. You’re misinformed. the web is public, despite SV’s best attempts to subvert and exploit that. If you don’t want someone accessing information don’t publish it as a website that anyone can access.

Okey. So how about respecting the right of those who use paywalls to get money for the content they create? Just because something is on the internet doesn't give you the holly right of getting it for free.

> Just because something is on the internet doesn't give you the holly right of getting it for free.

Why not?

Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#225
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Quantum changed API => it made a bunch of addons dead => lots if worried, and upset users appeared discussing it. I have nothing against Quantum, I accept it was necessary to go for a new model, but it clearly shows addons are important for a significant share of users.

You said "exactly because of choice of third-party addons" and that's what I'm questioning. I'm not questioning whether addons in general are important for a significant share of users.

What you want to have is a trustworthy place where >99% of users can get >99% of software. You can have that -- look at Linux package managers -- without preventing side loading. And in fact that's necessary to prevent despotism.

The people operating the repository want people to use it. They don't want them getting things from untrustworthy places. But if they can just prohibit that, they can be tyrants -- refusing beneficial software that the user wants because the monopoly provider has a conflict of interest or is being coerced by someone else.

By contrast, if the user can load the beneficial application themselves then the repository has the incentive to prevent that from happening (and thereby discourage users from doing that in general) by carrying it themselves. And the fact that there can be competing repositories means that the one that carries the most beneficial software and the least user-hostile software can be the one that wins in the marketplace. But not if the vendor locks everyone else out and becomes an abusive monopolist.

Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#226

This extension just seems to strip tracking data and pretend to be a Google bot. It baffles me that this is somehow concerning enough to be taken down. And anyway, isn't making exemptions for Google's robots sort-of against their policy? https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/66355

You are not allowed to circumvent paywalls, just like you are not allowed to circumvent locks, no matter how easy they are to circumvent. As far as I have always understood, you may publish a locksmithing guide, even an “entering your home when locked out” guide, but not a “how to commit burglary” guide.

A paywall is not a lock. It is code that someone else wants to ship to my computer to run. It's up to me to decide what parts of it I run or not.

Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#227
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Quantum changed API => it made a bunch of addons dead => lots if worried, and upset users appeared discussing it. I have nothing against Quantum, I accept it was necessary to go for a new model, but it clearly shows addons are important for a significant share of users.

You said "exactly because of choice of third-party addons" and that's what I'm questioning. I'm not questioning whether addons in general are important for a significant share of users.

Could you clarify your position please: do you think that "Significant part of FF's userbase decided in its favor exactly because of choice of third-party addons" is incorrect?

Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#228

The real problem is Google indexing it. Wasn't there even a rule from Google that you can't serve different content from what the general public is seeing?

Yes! https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/66355 It's definitely against their policy in my opinion, but I guess you could make a weak case that this is what the public would see if this was their "first visit".

It is not against their policy. They know how to index it and there is schema.org markup for paywalled content.

https://support.google.com/news/publisher-center/answer/4054...

Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not allowed to circumvent paywalls, just like you are not allowed to circumvent locks, no matter how easy they are to circumvent. As far as I have always understood, you may publish a locksmithing guide, even an “entering your home when locked out” guide, but not a “how to commit burglary” guide.

A paywall is not a lock. It is code that someone else wants to ship to my computer to run. It's up to me to decide what parts of it I run or not.

No, it’s not. The jurisprudence is pretty clear.

Re: Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Just take down the website” is disingenuous. You, and I, and those idiot judges all know it’s often much harder, and sometimes impossible, to get to the website owners. “Abolish all copyright” is a legitimate opinion. It’s wrong,of course. But it’s possible to discuss it. Don’t demean yourself and others by starting discussions with disingenuous arguments.

> It’s wrong,of course Stating your personal opinions as facts and claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong is at best annoying and disrespectful. Edit: *seems at best annoying and disrespectful to me. Apologies for the confusion.

That seems to be a personal opinion, stated as fact.

And this complaint is doubly mysterious, because my post above explicitly labels that opinion as an opinion. That’s more than can be said of the vast majority of posts. Including yours.

(Which I don’t fault them for. Whatever disclaimers you may want would seem to just be needless filler)

(In my opinion)

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