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Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

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Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#121

Post by cma »

code_duck wrote: post #75
sokoloff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though I agree with the end effect, the reality is closer to “let’s pay a landscape company to take care of this thing that isn’t our core business” (perfectly rational) and then the landscape company figures out the most cost-effective way to accomplish that. If that lens is correct, asking people to forego landscape services isn’t the right response, but rather to better educate and/or regulate landscaping services…

The choice of landscaping materials and chemicals is ultimately up to the customer. Ideally, people would be aware and care that a landscaping company is needlessly pouring poison all over their property. The best plan would be to design spaces that don’t ‘need’ weedkiller or leaf blowing.

> The choice of landscaping materials and chemicals is ultimately up to the customer.

Not true, there are all kinds of regulations. You can't use DDT for insects in basic landscaping, for example. If it had been heavily used in landscaping (not sure it made sense), the solution to DDT's toxic effects wouldn't have been to educate individuals. When there are big negative externalities, the government usually needs to step in.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#122

Post by tstrimple »

monktastic1 wrote: post #115
cryptonector wrote: post #7

This seems like part of the insect apocalypse story, and bee colony collapse disorder. All probably caused by overuse of insecticides. Note that if we don't find a way to correct this, it can be catastrophic on a timescale that makes the most alarmist climate change predictions seem like nothing. There must be some percentage of normal insect population density below which population of frogs and birds and what not w…

It seems to me that all of these problems -- the insect apocalypse, general biodiversity loss, climate change, all the way to the depression and anxiety epidemics, economic inequity, etc., stem from the same general principle: our alienation from ourselves, each other, and nature. In a sense, healing any one of them will contribute to healing all of them. And trying to merely engineer our way out of any of them (whil…

> It seems to me that all of these problems -- the insect apocalypse, general biodiversity loss, climate change, all the way to the depression and anxiety epidemics, economic inequity, etc., stem from the same general principle:

I thought you were going to say capitalism.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#123

Post by monktastic1 »

tstrimple wrote: post #122
monktastic1 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that all of these problems -- the insect apocalypse, general biodiversity loss, climate change, all the way to the depression and anxiety epidemics, economic inequity, etc., stem from the same general principle: our alienation from ourselves, each other, and nature. In a sense, healing any one of them will contribute to healing all of them. And trying to merely engineer our way out of any of them (whil…

> It seems to me that all of these problems -- the insect apocalypse, general biodiversity loss, climate change, all the way to the depression and anxiety epidemics, economic inequity, etc., stem from the same general principle: I thought you were going to say capitalism.

My sense is that capitalism is also a symptom of the same principle (which compels us to view nature as merely a "means of production").

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#124

Post by graeme »

AlanSE wrote: post #108
cryptonector wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The variations in surface temperature we have seen in the modern era are nothing compared to what we've seen in the recent geological record. Moreover, insects are very sturdy throughout the geological record, so it's very difficult to believe that less than 1C change in a century could cause this (the end of the last glacial period saw a 7C swing in just a few hundred years). It's pretty clear that climate change is…

> We also know that CO2 and temperature in the geological record are linked, with CO2 changes lagging temperature changes, which rules out CO2 as a cause of past temperature changes. This sentence might have seemed logically sound to you, but it's extremely fallacious. What this means is that the geological evidence is not sufficient to say that increasing CO2 concentrations increases temperature. Do we have other ev…

Do you know of a good resource with which to explain the high school physics of radiative forcing?

I have some smart friends on the fence about the predicted effects of climate change. I don't have the science background to walk through radiative forcing, but could learn it if pointed in the right direction. I've already checked wikipedia, but finding something on this specific point hasn't been fruitful.

This bugs me, as I think it is:

1. The decisive point

2. Poorly understood by the public

3. Could be easily explained

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#125

Post by trgn »

stinos wrote: post #71
trgn wrote: post #4

I planted milkweed in my front yard. These plants don't come cheap, between 10-20$ at the nursery for a young plant. I never was able to grow them from seed. Anyways, the plants did attract a few monarchs late summer/early fall. I counted two. I planted nine total. I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard and having overgrown "landscape weeds".

I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard and having overgrown "landscape weeds" This is ... fascinating for me. For a number of reasons. Like, it's the exact opposite of what I do with my 'lawn' and makes me feel naive and like I've been living under a rock for not realizing there are places where people actually get warnings for this. Can you elaborate in what kind of place you live, wh…

Pretty normal older suburban neighborhood in the midwest, no HOA or covenants or anything like that. I expect some busybody neighbor called local 311. Most front yards are just mowed grass. People do plant trees, shrubs, and have flower beds for annuals. I read online that people get around it by making the plants look more intentional. Next spring, I'll frame the milkweed with boxwoods and put a sign with something like "our neighborhood butterfly garden" or something.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#126

Post by sfvisser »

philipps wrote: post #112
sfvisser wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the people in France are acting very rational here. The artifical increase in gas prices directly hits their state of being right now and that of their kids. There is no uncertainty about that. Global warning may or may not make life shitty in some future scenario. Why do they, who are already poor, need to pay the price right now? I think most people rather want to be not poor in a world with global warning…

“Global warming may or may not make life shitty in some future scenario.” I think you’re trying to rationalize the position of the protesters, but this is a dangerous rationalization. Arguing that it “may or may not” lead to catastrophic consequences leaves the door open for doubt. I understand if poor people or nations are frustrated, and I agree that the rich have a responsibility to show leadership, but there shou…

There is always reason to doubt predictions about the future. Maybe we are coming up with the ultimate renewable energy source in terms of both externalities and economics, maybe we are rich enough to take preventive measures against the negative effects, maybe we geo-engineer or way out it, maybe the current climate models are completely bogus. I don’t know.

You don’t know.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#127

Post by momentmaker »

monktastic1 wrote: post #115
cryptonector wrote: post #7

This seems like part of the insect apocalypse story, and bee colony collapse disorder. All probably caused by overuse of insecticides. Note that if we don't find a way to correct this, it can be catastrophic on a timescale that makes the most alarmist climate change predictions seem like nothing. There must be some percentage of normal insect population density below which population of frogs and birds and what not w…

It seems to me that all of these problems -- the insect apocalypse, general biodiversity loss, climate change, all the way to the depression and anxiety epidemics, economic inequity, etc., stem from the same general principle: our alienation from ourselves, each other, and nature. In a sense, healing any one of them will contribute to healing all of them. And trying to merely engineer our way out of any of them (whil…

We're all connected in a sense and we all rely on each other in a way we don't even realize. We are all a part of a whole. Oneness if you will.

By destroying one part to satisfy another part, we're still chipping away the whole.

In the Gaia's hypothesis, the human race is the brain of Earth. We are the neural network that powers the thriving liveliness of Earth. We're suppose to be the protector, keeper and guardian of Mother Earth yet we aren't doing our duties. We are all slowly waking up to that fact as we become more aware and conscious.

Hope it will not be too late...

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#128

Post by spiritcat »

speedplane wrote: post #93
crispinb wrote: post #87

All our evolved natural systems are collapsing, and are being replaced by crude early-stage technological ones. "Fighting" each as a separate policy issue is a continuation of the fluffy-minded & neurotic economic/business attitude which cannot cope with facing physical reality. We're almost certainly stuffed. This was probably always inevitable, because the naked ape likely lacks whatever capacities might be needed…

Can I take the cynical extreme long term view for a second? No matter how much we destroy our planet, it's damage will be a blink of an eye in cosmological terms. Even if we nearly exterminate all other species, plenty of genetic material will survive by dumb chance alone, and in a few million years there will be a whole other ecosystem/society to worry about. Earth doesn't care about biodiversity, beauty, or longevi…

A Nuclear war/accident taking out most multi-cellular life would take more than a few million years to recover from. Then on those time scales sun's luminosity will start to shift, might not be time for intelligent life to evolve again.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#129

Post by selectodude »

graeme wrote: post #124
AlanSE wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We also know that CO2 and temperature in the geological record are linked, with CO2 changes lagging temperature changes, which rules out CO2 as a cause of past temperature changes. This sentence might have seemed logically sound to you, but it's extremely fallacious. What this means is that the geological evidence is not sufficient to say that increasing CO2 concentrations increases temperature. Do we have other ev…

Do you know of a good resource with which to explain the high school physics of radiative forcing? I have some smart friends on the fence about the predicted effects of climate change. I don't have the science background to walk through radiative forcing, but could learn it if pointed in the right direction. I've already checked wikipedia, but finding something on this specific point hasn't been fruitful. This bugs m…

https://scied.ucar.edu/teaching-box/greenhouse-effect

There you go.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#130

Post by spiritcat »

speedplane wrote: post #97
Espressosaurus wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a long view, sure, but it's one that doesn't include humans. Most people would like humans to be around. The conditions under which we live won't be in play if the fisheries all collapse and the clathrate gun fires.

People want people around. People want endangered species around. However, civilization has been around for roughly 20,000 years, and modern civilization for roughly 100 years. If earth was a person and we all lived on it's tummy, everything humans ever existed would still be an eye-blick.

Earth seems to be an extreme anomaly in an extremely violent and cold and hot and dead universe. I'd prefer not to test it's resilience.
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