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The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

nytimes.com

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Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#91

Post by erikig »

Nasrudith wrote: post #47
jaggednad wrote: post #37

One theory why primates evolved big brains is because they had hands. Big brains for an animal like a gazelle don’t pay off because, without hands, there isn’t much a gazelle can do with that big brain. Better it use that energy for bigger leg muscles. Primates evolves hands so they could better grasp branches, but, once they had hands, there was a lot more they could do with them, like make tools. A bigger brain for…

Well I think the bigger issue for gazelles is energy density period - brains are calorie hogs and it doesn't take much cunning to track down grass. Grass eating is the opposite direction in a food strategy - going for abundant but low density food instead of chasing higher density. A diverse diet is a bit of a hallmark of intelligence in itself in that they are able to use their brains to get more food to make it wor…

Speaking of Hermit Crabs, I was also blown away by their communal shell exchange process.

Many hermit crabs will come together and work as a team to change shells in hierarchy. If you've never seen it, you are in for a treat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1dnocPQXDQ

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#92

Post by Joakal »

user982 wrote: post #17
stjohnswarts wrote: post #12

I would like to keep one for a pet but they only live a few years. Been through that with a rat, won't do it again; even kits and pups only last 15 years or so. too soon

If you want an intelligent pet that will likely outlive you, get a parrot.

Actually, get a human. Parrots are going to be wiped out. For example, African Parrots are going extinct from the poaching due to the increasing demand, especially when people spread information about them. Please, outlaw touching parrots unless scientifically taken care of.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#93

Post by icebraining »

otabdeveloper2 wrote: post #86
mirimir wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't thinking about the question of a creator, per se . I was thinking generally about the fallacy of seeking intentionality in evolution. There is a point to analyzing what happened, of course. It's just that too much "why" is dangerous.

> It's just that too much "why" is dangerous. You're totally right. Asking questions and thinking about things might lead you to dangerous places. You might even (gasp) eventually start believing in God. That would be doubleplus ungood crimethink!

Ah, but which one? You might start believing in the wrong god.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#94

Post by matt-snider »

finnh wrote: post #50
mirimir wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to imply that. Indeed, Portia! So if you love Portia, I recommend Peter Watts' Echopraxia and (for a full-length focus) Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Time .

Don’t forget A Deepness In The Sky!

Just went hunting for a goodreads link to post the same, then found your comment. Really great book!

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#95

Post by chopin »

Joakal wrote: post #81
austincheney wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted though that intelligence isn't linked to brain size, except for in the case of hominids compared to other hominids. There is also not a direct correlation to increased intelligence and survivability except for competition between individuals. Corvids are among the most intelligent animals in the world. In many cases far more intelligent than many ape species. Their brains are the size of almonds, a…

Nitpick, article quotes scientists that talks about brain size relative to body being a factor in intelligence, not brain size alone.

I thought that always as a strange argument. Why would relative size matter for intelligence? At least if one thinks of compute capacity this shouldn't matter.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#96

Post by nikofeyn »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #2

In case you missed it, this out-of-the-water predatory behavior of an octopus is astounding to us mid-west folks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5fZu-1bt6Y

this is something a certain species in Australia does, as covered in the bbc's the hunt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebeNeQFUMa0

it's fascinating. they also filmed this in blue planet ii.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoTk5WofgoE

that clip unfortunately cuts off the first part where the shark caught the octopus, but the octopus put its arms in the sharks gills so it couldn't breathe and got away.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#97

Post by agumonkey »

rland wrote: post #22

Octopuses are really incredible creatures. They diverged from humans in the evolutionary tree hundreds of millions of years ago. Our common ancestor would have been a very dumb animal. Their brain structure is so different: 8 semi-autonomous tentacles, with one sort of central coordinating body. What could it possibly be like to experience the world that way? They're probably the "peak" of intelligence with the most…

the decentralized aspect seems key here. It's like a tiny team operating in parallel. Each don't need to be extremely efficient if the coordination reached a good enough threshold.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#98

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

rland wrote: post #22

Octopuses are really incredible creatures. They diverged from humans in the evolutionary tree hundreds of millions of years ago. Our common ancestor would have been a very dumb animal. Their brain structure is so different: 8 semi-autonomous tentacles, with one sort of central coordinating body. What could it possibly be like to experience the world that way? They're probably the "peak" of intelligence with the most…

The semi-autonomous part isn't that unfamiliar.

I don't need to concentrate on finger or hand movements while I'm typing this. My brain thinks about the words while it delegates the details to other systems. There's an incredible amount of processing involved in operating human limbs which we're mostly unaware of.

I'd guess octopus consciousness is similar - goal oriented, with delegation. I'm mot sure, given the relatively small distances involved, if the slight physical separation of the central and distributed brains would make a huge difference to having an all-in-one model with distinct areas squished up inside a single unit.

But I absolutely agree - they are amazing and fascinating. If they were more social they'd probably be running the planet.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#99

Post by weinzierl »

adolph wrote: post #40
yorwba wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They apparently also don't require crossing wires connecting each eye with the opposite brain hemisphere. Instead, the optic lobes are directly behind the eyes: http://cephalove.blogspot.com/2010/06/view-of-octopus-brain....

Also, their eye cells only detect black and white but they can probably “see” color by using non-circular pupils. https://news.berkeley.edu/2016/07/05/weird-pupils-let-octopu...

The article you linked also speculates on the main topic of this thread:

> Intriguingly, using chromatic aberration to detect color is more computationally intensive than other types of color vision, such as our own, and likely requires a lot of brainpower, Stubbs said. This may explain, in part, why cephalopods are the most intelligent invertebrates on Earth.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#100

Post by freshhawk »

chopin wrote: post #95
Joakal wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpick, article quotes scientists that talks about brain size relative to body being a factor in intelligence, not brain size alone.

I thought that always as a strange argument. Why would relative size matter for intelligence? At least if one thinks of compute capacity this shouldn't matter.

probably because relative size is a good proxy for evolutionary "resources" being allocated to brains.

why absolute size doesn't matter as much as we think it should is a really good question, but clearly our modern transition from "the nervous system is like a steam engine" to "the brain is like a computer" is only an improvement and not actually a good model yet.

So, when "one thinks of compute capacity" one arrives at the wrong answer instead of one that fits the evidence and statements of the evidence seem like "a strange argument".

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