The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why? • Hacker News Board

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#61

Post by libraryatnight » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:01 AM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #54

phil248 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine the difference is that hermit crabs are exhibiting a rote, inborn behavior that is universal among the species. Cephalopods apparently figure this stuff out on the fly.

I don't know about rote or learned but they do figure it out on the fly and are willing to go with basically anything to protect their soft abdomen and keep it from drying out rapidly - including litter if it is their only option.

That's just choosing a different casing (or using what's readily available), the urge to find a casing is what's innate. You don't see all octopuses finding objects to carry and use as protection - like tools, it's something this one figured out.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#62

Post by qwerty456127 » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:04 AM UTC

Let me suggest a rather weird idea (I'm not really serious, but who knows...): perhaps they have evolved to this not from more primitive species but from less primitive actually. Even humans don't really need strong hardcover bodies and strong limbs any more as now we enclose our bodies in all kinds of environment suits, structures, and vehicles, all kinds of physical work can be automated, all we really need is a brain and perhaps we can evolve into some sort of cephalopods occasionally as some hundreds millions years (I'm not really sure about the order of magnitude) pass if we don't go extinct and we can also start loosing some intelligence once too. BTW this direction (to the point of a rather-primitive amphibia) of human evolution as been suggested in the 15th episode of the second season of the StarTrek:VoyagerTV show (an episode popularly named among the worst although I find it being one of the most intriguing). The Guild navigators from the David Lynch movie are another clue, who knows what this weirdly evolved kind of human species could evolve into to adapt when there is no spice any more...

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#63

Post by mensetmanusman » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:10 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #3

Octopi are interesting in that they evolved along their own path. The octopus eye has the wiring on the back, where it belongs, instead of on the front blocking some of the light, as most other animals with eyes do.

It’s an interesting area.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/313/5795/1914

The location of the ‘wiring’ changes the type of information gleaned from the light field. There is no ‘wrong,’ rather, a variation in local optimization.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#64

Post by mensetmanusman » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:13 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #18

user982 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want an intelligent pet that will likely outlive you, get a parrot.

Actually, please don't. If you want a pet, adopt a dog or cat from the local shelter. At least they have been domesticated long enough that they are better off under human care. Don't keep an animal that had to be captured and removed from its natural habitat.

A pet is any creatures that has been removed from its natural habitat. Fast forward 10000 years and it’s possible parrots are as common as dogs for pets.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#65

Post by PakG1 » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:14 AM UTC

arcticfox wrote: post #32

rland wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prominence of the peak. Like how Denali is taller than the mountains around it, but Everest is still the tallest. We're quite close to dolphins and killer whales, so the essence of their intelligence is easier for us to understand, because they are more like us. Bees, termites, ants, etc. are really interesting because any individual is pretty stupid, but the entire swarm is complex and intelligent.

local maxima, in other words. Humans being the global maximum, on Earth at least.

Wouldn't global maxima simply be local maxima per planet? :)

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#66

Post by mensetmanusman » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:15 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #15

> But Why? Arguably, there is no "why". You could say that they're an evolutionary dead end. But that's just speculation.

Not sure why you got down voted. The ‘why’ does prejudice a creator :)

It also assumes free will in asking the quesiton.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#67

Post by danans » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:40 AM UTC

hyperpallium wrote: post #35

How much of an impediment to technological progress would not have being able to tame fire have been? You probably don't need the warmth underwater, but cooking facilitates nutrient absorption ("exodigestion"?), wards off predators, post-sunset light, and (later) smithing, smelting, steam power etc.

> How much of an impediment to technological progress would not have being able to tame fire have been?

A real world example of this is the isolated tribe of North Sentinel Island (who recently killed an American Christian missionary who smuggled himself there to prosyletize).

As best we can tell, they appear to not have learned to harnessing fire to this day.

EDIT: although the first anthropologist to contact the Sentinelese claims otherwise:

https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/surpris...

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#68

Post by stewbrew » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:56 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #44

This is what a failed alien invasion / colonization attempt might look like. A succesful splashdown, reasonable adaptation to the local conditions — and a fatal flaw speeds up development enormously, bodies replicate and die long before their brains mature. The culture is lost, the invaders turned into animals doing primitive hunting.

Maybe they came from a gas planet and they came to invade the deep sea because that's what home looks like. Unfortunately, these super intelligent beings failed to understand that, on Earth, most of the fun happens on land.

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#69

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:57 AM UTC

rland wrote: post #27

Latteland wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what the peak of intelligence means if that is termites, bees, humans? What about dolphins, dogs, not to mention chimpanzees, other great apes are likely smarter then them, but it will take some clever tests and clever categorization of intelligence to understand their sense.

The prominence of the peak. Like how Denali is taller than the mountains around it, but Everest is still the tallest. We're quite close to dolphins and killer whales, so the essence of their intelligence is easier for us to understand, because they are more like us. Bees, termites, ants, etc. are really interesting because any individual is pretty stupid, but the entire swarm is complex and intelligent.

[deleted]

Re: The Octopus Is Smart as Heck, But Why?

#70

Post by mirimir » Sun, Dec 02, 2018, 5:57 AM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #66

mirimir wrote: post #15

> But Why? Arguably, there is no "why". You could say that they're an evolutionary dead end. But that's just speculation.

Not sure why you got down voted. The ‘why’ does prejudice a creator :) It also assumes free will in asking the quesiton.

I wasn't thinking about the question of a creator, per se.

I was thinking generally about the fallacy of seeking intentionality in evolution. There is a point to analyzing what happened, of course. It's just that too much "why" is dangerous.